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+--- Thread: Am I Going Mad (/showthread.php?tid=837)
RE: Am I Going Mad - JayTownsend - 06-24-2014
I know you guys prefer the lighter maps for Saipan 1944 but I still think the darker ones look far nicer! Liberation 1944 on the other hand are way too purple/dark for me.
The problem with the Liberation 1944 counters, is that they are too thick to match with counters from other games. I mean you could do it but it looks a bit funny.
With all that said, everything is still playable with whatever version of any game you own.
RE: Am I Going Mad - campsawyer - 06-24-2014
Quote:With all that said, everything is still playable with whatever version of any game you own.
I have to disagree with this. First, before I had the lighter Saipan maps I did not see a trail on one of the boards. I completely missed it for several games, could it make a difference, quite probably as one game required the Marines to traverse the hill. With Liberation, I played two games and missed many the hedgerow hexes because they blended too much into the ground. I have given up on it until I can get new maps.
Second, any game company should put the quality of there art at the top of the list of things they need to do right. This is one of the main reason to buy a game other wise we could play it on the computer. I know APL can do this, I have seen it with recent games with map art by the same designer. In my copy of Horn of Africa, it has the best maps and counters that I have seen come out of APL. I was quite happy to see this thinking that they had solved the darkness problem and Saipan was a "one off" issue. But then I received Liberation shortly after that and was shocked at the sight of the maps. I could not believe that they would send something out like this. But I tried them for the two games and as stated it was painful.
As for APL sending out free fixes, the economics of APL will not make this happen. When Cone of Fire had the issue, APL had some money and could do this, I just can't see it happening at this point, we will have it pay for it if you want it. I will grudgingly do this so I can play what I have invested in, but no more pre-orders.
RE: Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-24-2014
(06-24-2014, 03:56 AM)campsawyer Wrote:Quote:With all that said, everything is still playable with whatever version of any game you own.
As for APL sending out free fixes, the economics of APL will not make this happen. When Cone of Fire had the issue, APL had some money and could do this, I just can't see it happening at this point, we will have it pay for it if you want it. I will grudgingly do this so I can play what I have invested in, but no more pre-orders.
Alan,
Of course I fully understsnd the economics dilemma of APL BUT if people continue to pay for second sets of maps then they will never ever take time to qualty assure product. Nothing in me allows me to buy the same set again that I have already paid for. Admittedly, I have not complained either so APL are unaware of my distaste for these maps. But I saw little point in complaining when they were only SELLING new sets. Unacceptable when the issue is so simple.
Look at GDW WW3, Europa (original series) Squad Leader and others. Their series maps to all these games match up with the other box sets. If they can do it, then .....
RE: Am I Going Mad - campsawyer - 06-24-2014
(06-24-2014, 05:32 AM)vince hughes Wrote:(06-24-2014, 03:56 AM)campsawyer Wrote:Quote:With all that said, everything is still playable with whatever version of any game you own.
As for APL sending out free fixes, the economics of APL will not make this happen. When Cone of Fire had the issue, APL had some money and could do this, I just can't see it happening at this point, we will have it pay for it if you want it. I will grudgingly do this so I can play what I have invested in, but no more pre-orders.
Alan,
Of course I fully understsnd the economics dilemma of APL BUT if people continue to pay for second sets of maps then they will never ever take time to qualty assure product. Nothing in me allows me to buy the same set again that I have already paid for. Admittedly, I have not complained either so APL are unaware of my distaste for these maps. But I saw little point in complaining when they were only SELLING new sets. Unacceptable when the issue is so simple.
Look at GDW WW3, Europa (original series) Squad Leader and others. Their series maps to all these games match up with the other box sets. If they can do it, then .....
Vince,
I agree with you on the principle and after Liberation I will not purchase first runs. As for complaining please do. I had written to Mike and Guy regarding these issues many months ago. It did get the point that there were problems. Unfortunately Mike B would not commit to fixing for free. I would love this as most companies that produce a product will do this, but as I said it is subjective and he will cite this in a response as I have pointed this out. So at that point, I had two choices, take the gain that there are new maps and I can play the game, or sit back and wait for them to give it for free. Given APL's history, the later would leave me with unplayable games. I would rather take the rap and get the games going and show my disappointment with not preordering or buying first runs and I have emailed Mike B on this. Is this the best no, but it will work for me. If you can get him to budge on this more power to you.
RE: Am I Going Mad - vince hughes - 06-24-2014
Alan,
LOL - You forgot the very simple third option.
Make do with the lower quality goods you received in the box in the first place.
That's what I will do, but it has been very much the nail in the coffin in a long run of bloopers.
The fact of the matter is that AP have been churning out titles as fast as they could given their circumstances and available printing partners. Unfortunately over the past couple of years this 'rush' to print has resulted (IMO and to my tastes) poor quality maps, variable counter finish, thickness and quality. Printed material slipping through with too many errors and things missed out. (check previous threads here for Q&A's on errata for recent box sets). It has also meant rules being slipped in without consultation with designers thus changing intended scenario designs or direction and as you have stated before, percentagely more leaders becoming higher powered than previously.
That above is not even all that I could bitch about, but I stress once more. This is a series with over 50+ titles and it is simply not good enough. The map style and counters die should be cast and should be rolling off the prints as second nature. Books and SSR's I can at least understand how so much written material allows mistakes to slip through. However, even here, pass it to people that play and even if they don't find all 'what-ifs' they'll iron out a good few before it makes the presses. I really am sorry to be the nay sayer or moaning minnie, but I really can not put up with anymore excusing of these continual issues. I can not even call them mistakes, because if they were, they would be made once and not each time.
As a very long time and invested supporter of the series it does hurt inside to turncoat like this. But the glut of released material seems to be "Decide in haste, repent at leisure" I guess.
One last thing. Please note, none of the above is in anyway the vaguest of attempts to swing people to my way of thinking on these issues. I am just writing down what my personal feelings are on these matters. I can see why people with less gusto for the series would have given up before this time.
RE: Am I Going Mad - campsawyer - 06-24-2014
Quote:Make do with the lower quality goods you received in the box in the first place.
You right it is a LOL. I tried, but failed at this. As pointed out in a prior post, there is terrain features that are missed or not clear. My eyes are bad, thanks to computers, I don't need APL accelerating the process
RE: Am I Going Mad - stugibsonca - 12-19-2014
First run QC being poor does not work in any other industry. This is just poor management and a total lack of concern for their customers. Everybody else can get it right or replaces it at the publishers expense. GMT is replacing Panzer Expansion 3 Maps because they were printed on the wrong paper stock. They are doing this at their own expense.
Why has APL not designed ONE set of colors and symbology that would be used across all products? Instead we are subjected to a new art project for every game. I looked at the Liberation 1944 Maps and immediately removed the game from my order form. Not only are they too dark, they, like many other system maps are cartoonish and certainly not anywhere near photo realistic representations. I am tempted to call them juvenile
And it is not as if other companies are unable to make attractive maps. Panzer Blitz II, Devil's Den for ATS, all of the maps in the Conflict of Heroes series by Academy Games, and the White Star Rising maps to name but a few examples. I think that the issue can be resolved by commissioning a set of symbology and colours and using them for all maps. If these are representative geomorphic maps, then there is no reason why all of the maps for a geographic region could not be used together.
This is the biggest issue I have with APL. The game is a real gem. The production values are amongst the worst in the industry.
RE: Am I Going Mad - larry marak - 12-20-2014
Why has APL not designed ONE set of colors and symbology that would be used across all products? Instead we are subjected to a new art project for every game.
This is the biggest issue I have with APL. The game is a real gem. The production values are amongst the worst in the industry.
[/quote]
Simply answered, PG has been in print for 15 years from a company that never had an art department that could call a meeting, determine the series color palatte in advance (I'm sure Mike and Brian weren't concerned with Hyderbadi livery patterns in 98-99 when the series was in final pre-release development). Avalanche changed its nature and its product lines several times of the last 20 years, and even the technology for producing and (more important) preserving art has changed radically in the 21st century.
RE: Am I Going Mad - stugibsonca - 12-20-2014
Yes, all true, but I was able to write specifications and define colour palettes and symbology standards when I worked as a cartographer from 1978 through 1996, changing them as we changed from manual drafting to digital collection and printing through the 90's. That does not also mean that APL could not have done so since.
RE: Am I Going Mad - larry marak - 12-20-2014
True, and if they had had continuity in artists they could have been done better. For a short time, WW2 platoon games in the PG system were conceived as a separate series, Semper Fi, as opposed to PanzerGrenadier, and the art for Guad was very much different in style and interpretation than all that went before.
One of the saddest consequences of the changing data storage model to me was that game maps used to be stored on plastic cells, that would shrink and distort to uselessness after long storage. This problem plagued all the wargame companies as the progression to virtual image storage took place. Great art was lost forever.