+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: 7.33 Combining Fire (/showthread.php?tid=571)
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Hugmenot - 07-16-2013
"X" results ruin a lot of plans, Alan!
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Hugmenot - 07-16-2013
Combining Fire
[attachment=431]
Alan and Peter both pointed out it will take two activations to fire all units on the town. It looks like Peter is playing with a common house rule that only applies the -1 column modifier if the target is a hill that is higher elevation than at least one shooter. I do not, so my final fire would be on the 22 column (30 Direct Fire, +2 columns for all attacking units being adjacent to target hex, -2 columns because target hex is a town, -1 column because target hex is a hill).
Assuming the French have 8/7 or 8/6 morale, they have roughly a 31% chance of not being affected at all by the fire; by that I mean, no casualty, disruption, or demoralization. If the Germans win the initiative by 2 or more and use the first 2 activations to conduct Direct Fire, the French are 90% likely to suffer an adverse results.
One other option is to activate the Captain's hex (0411). The Captain activates the the HMG and INF in hex 0512, and the Lieutenant and the INF 0312. The AFV in hex 0411 activates the AFV in 0312, The Lieutenant activates the INF in hex 0313. All to fire. The AFV in hex 0313 cannot not activated. The AFV in hex 0411 adds its Direct Fire to the infantry in 0411, and the Captain +1 Fire Modifiers allows the two foot units in 0512 to add their firepower to the attack. The Germans roll on the 22 Column.
If the French suffer a disruption or worse to one of the two units, the Lieutenant in 0312, the AFV in 0312, and the INF in 0312 and 0313 assault the town. They will be at least on the 18 column (21 Direct Fire Value, +1 column for leader, +1 column for undemoralized closed-top AFV and one infantry of any type except HMG, -2 columns assaulting town, potentially another +1 column if they have higher morale than the French and another potential +1 column if the two French units were demoralized by the Direct Fire). The French will be on the 13 column or less because one unit will not be at full firepower, so less than 13 direct fire value but +1 column for the leader assuming he is not demoralized.
If none of the French units were affected by the first direct fire, the Germans may still want to assault (both sides will be on the 18 column), or hex 0312 may fire on the town on the 11 column (16 FP, -1 column shift with the same exact modifiers as above) and hex 0313 takes a shot on the 2 column (5 FP so 4 column, -1 column shift).
Some players will prefer to tale two activations to use Direct Fire, some will prefer to use just one activation and to do what I described. I don't think there is a better way and best may be to just develop your own style.
Which Target Would You Bombard?
[attachment=432]
Note that I did not put any French units in the map.
If there is a unit in the town in 0713, bombarding the Lieutenant's may be a high priority. The fact there is also a foot unit in his hex makes this choice more appealing.
If the units are on the march eastward or southward, bombarding the two units in 0914 may be a more attractive option because one leader will likely have to stay behind to help it/them recover.
If the units are on the march westward, bombarding hex 0914 is not as attractive as the previous case because the Germans could try to have the units attempt to self-recover and move the captain in hex 0915 to command them next activation. Maybe bombarding the Lieutenant's hex is better in this case. Maybe.
I hope this helped you better understand the system Maggal. Happy gaming!
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - campsawyer - 07-16-2013
In the first picture, all the units cannot combined into one fire. There are three possible combinations. The optimal, the Capt actives and combines 412 and 512 to fire on the French. Then the next activation the LT activates 312 and 313 to fire.
This cannot be done in a one activation, because the StugIII in 312 cannot active the Stug in 313, as he was activated by the PzIVD in 411. No chain commands with tanks. Also the Capt being a '1' firepower can only combine with one hex. 512 is the optimal hex for his combination. Flipping hexes with the Capt and Lt would allow you to do this in one activation.
For the question in the second picture, right in the center 913 to try to first disrupt the chain of command. Secondary targets would be 1012 and 914.
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - plloyd1010 - 07-16-2013
The combined fire question: The LT stack activates, the LT activates the INf in 313, the Stug in the LT hex actives the Stug next to him. Units may combine same types fire when in the hex, the LT may combine through the INF in 313. Attack on the 30 column. CAPT's Stack activates, activates and combines with the HMG & INF in 512. Another 30 column attack. Takes 2 activations. The only problem being that surviving Frogs may try to run out through 413.
The bombardment question: The LT is the only real choice. Disrupt him and the whole fire concept falls apart. The CAPT may not add to the AFV's. Long ago (over on Consim), the consensus was that a command-able unit must be in hex with the leader wanting to combine fire. Regardless of how difficult disrupting the LT is (functional moral of 11), scagging the CAPT is a waste of dynamite.
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Michael Murphy - 07-16-2013
(07-16-2013, 12:06 PM)plloyd1010 Wrote: The combined fire question: The LT stack activates, the LT activates the INf in 313, the Stug in the LT hex actives the Stug next to him. Units may combine same types fire when in the hex, the LT may combine through the INF in 313. Attack on the 30 column. CAPT's Stack activates, activates and combines with the HMG & INF in 512. Another 30 column attack. Takes 2 activations. The only problem being that surviving Frogs may try to run out through 413.
OBJECTION
This may not be official canon, but I play that the self activation of both regular and tank leaders (in the same hex) means that all activations have to flow outward from that hex. In order to activate all of the units present the highest leader and and the middle tank have to be in the same hex. Following this logic once the LT in 0313 activates, he cannot activate the CAPT, although he can command the INF in hex 0411. That breaks the activation chain, leaving the INF and HMG in 0514 twiddling their thumbs this time around.
In my play, the problem presented here isn't solvable. The only legal solution would be to swap the LT and CAPT as campsawyer proposed.
(07-16-2013, 12:06 PM)plloyd1010 Wrote: The bombardment question: The LT is the only real choice. Disrupt him and the whole fire concept falls apart. The CAPT may not add to the AFV's. Long ago (over on Consim), the consensus was that a command-able unit must be in hex with the leader wanting to combine fire. Regardless of how difficult disrupting the LT is (functional moral of 11), scagging the CAPT is a waste of dynamite.
AGREE
No further comment necessary.
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Hugmenot - 07-16-2013
Alan, Peter, and Michael: thanks for your input.
Sorry I did not make the 2nd situation clearer but you guys answered before I had a chance to flesh out my post!
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Maggal - 07-16-2013
Thats really a lot of input, but as I read the rules for the 3rd time now
, a lot of it makes sense to me!Especially the pictures helped a lot, thanks hugemot!
As my copy of Eastern Front should arrive today at least, I thought of moving around some pieces on my own (as vince suggested).
What about posting the game step by step with pictures to learn rules and tactic? Has anybody done this before (couldn´t find anything similar...)?
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Shad - 07-16-2013
(07-16-2013, 04:51 PM)Maggal Wrote: Thats really a lot of input, but as I read the rules for the 3rd time now
Not enough!
Quote:What about posting the game step by step with pictures to learn rules and tactic? Has anybody done this before (couldn´t find anything similar...)?
Pretty sure Alan volunteered to do that years ago
or was it Vince? 
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - plloyd1010 - 07-17-2013
(07-16-2013, 12:42 PM)Michael Murphy Wrote: OBJECTION
I object to your objection. The problem is, barring a house rule on your part, is that Tank and AC leaders have no rank. This prevents subordinate activation, per rule 6.82. So, the CAPT could activate the LT (and his hex), and LT activate the INF in 313. However the AFV activation stops at 312, meaning the StugIII in 313 wouldn't be activated.
RE: 7.33 Combining Fire - Michael Murphy - 07-17-2013
I understand your point quite well. My point was made in the context of successfully activating all of the units in one activation. For that, you would need to arrange your units so that the tanks and regular units are activated from the same hex. In other words, one hex self-activates and spreads the joy around.