+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Saipan:LVT's (/showthread.php?tid=365)
RE: Saipan:LVT's - vince hughes - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 06:43 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: Next time hide your Colonel in one of the stacks, so even you don't know where he is!
Let me know the progress of your scenario?
Quite seriously on that, there are times when the odd scenario in many sets, boxes, books and downloads could do with an SSR that states stacks may not be inspected by opponent until forced to reveal through losses or MC's.
Radical ? Nahh, but a bit of FOW
RE: Saipan:LVT's - Hugmenot - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 06:43 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: Next time hide your Colonel in one of the stacks, so even you don't know where he is!I roll a die to determine which target to fire at when there are a number of equivalent targets within firing distance. I assume the firing unit would be able to approximate the number of men being transported but would not have time to determine if these men carried HMG, or mortars, or scan the men for high ranking officers.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - campsawyer - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 06:43 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: Next time hide your Colonel in one of the stacks, so even you don't know where he is!
Let me know the progress of your scenario?
Haha, problem is you can never really hide a leader as you need to declare you chain of activation, so it becomes obvious where he is. The only way is to delay and hope for a FoW so he does not come onboard on the first reinforcement turn. For future thought, I am a fan of putting in the setup instructions that they can enter on the turn or any future turns. I don't like being forced to enter the board all on the same turn.
As for the game, it is done, finished with a big Japanese win. They were able to plaster the Americans with AT fire while they were still on the water. Twelve steps lost even before they hit the beach. Then the OBA kicked in with 2's and 12's taking out another six steps. Japanese OP fire and DF fire took out the rest. The Americans to some beach hexes but it was only about 15 possibly with more turns the Americans could clear more hexes, but they just could not get going until turn 8. Between the landings and the DIS/DEM from the OBA, they really were pinned for a little more than half the game. Wiping out the Colonel in the water did not help. Half the units were stuck in the sights of the AT guns for two turns. On the plus side, I nice assault on an entrenchment on the cliffs on board 80. Americans took heavy casualties, but once they assaulted the hex with INF, HMG and a +2 Captain was able to score a two step loss and then wipe out an offending AT gun. The Japanese 75/88 gun is a nasty spud. Place that in a key position and entrenchment and the Americans are in for lots of trouble. FLM units are disappointing. They usually get hit by some sort of fire before they can make a difference, but I find this with every game that uses them. Casements similarly troubling like the European counterparts. Luckily, they don't have AT values.
So those are my thoughts for now...
RE: Saipan:LVT's - Hugmenot - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 07:34 AM)vince hughes Wrote: Quite seriously on that, there are times when the odd scenario in many sets, boxes, books and downloads could do with an SSR that states stacks may not be inspected by opponent until forced to reveal through losses or MC's.Funny that you say that now as I wrote an AAR earlier this afternoon that states something along those lines. The relevant passage is listed below.
Radical ? Nahh, but a bit of FOW
Incomplete information. Although it’s not in the rules, Matt and I do not inspect stacks until all units fire, move, or we have units very close by (normally adjacent). Strangely enough, it’s something we both started doing without actually discussing it. I enjoy the extra layer of uncertainty it adds to the game.
http://www.pg-hq.com/after-action-reports.php?AAR=4456
RE: Saipan:LVT's - Hugmenot - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 07:36 AM)campsawyer Wrote: Haha, problem is you can never really hide a leader as you need to declare you chain of activation, so it becomes obvious where he is. The only way is to delay and hope for a FoW so he does not come onboard on the first reinforcement turn. For future thought, I am a fan of putting in the setup instructions that they can enter on the turn or any future turns. I don't like being forced to enter the board all on the same turn.I have no clue whether this is a better approximation of reality but i would have carried on until the landing crafts hit the beach and then implemented the decapitation.
As for the game, it is done, finished with a big Japanese win. They were able to plaster the Americans with AT fire while they were still on the water. Twelve steps lost even before they hit the beach. Then the OBA kicked in with 2's and 12's taking out another six steps. Japanese OP fire and DF fire took out the rest. The Americans to some beach hexes but it was only about 15 possibly with more turns the Americans could clear more hexes, but they just could not get going until turn 8. Between the landings and the DIS/DEM from the OBA, they really were pinned for a little more than half the game. Wiping out the Colonel in the water did not help. Half the units were stuck in the sights of the AT guns for two turns. On the plus side, I nice assault on an entrenchment on the cliffs on board 80. Americans took heavy casualties, but once they assaulted the hex with INF, HMG and a +2 Captain was able to score a two step loss and then wipe out an offending AT gun. The Japanese 75/88 gun is a nasty spud. Place that in a key position and entrenchment and the Americans are in for lots of trouble. FLM units are disappointing. They usually get hit by some sort of fire before they can make a difference, but I find this with every game that uses them. Casements similarly troubling like the European counterparts. Luckily, they don't have AT values.
So those are my thoughts for now...
My interpretation is men would have landed and then asked what now?
Such interpretations do not bother me at all but then again, I am not adverse of calling a mulligan and starting over if I see a better strategy for either side after just a few turns.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - JayTownsend - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 07:36 AM)campsawyer Wrote:(11-14-2012, 06:43 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: Next time hide your Colonel in one of the stacks, so even you don't know where he is!
Let me know the progress of your scenario?
Haha, problem is you can never really hide a leader as you need to declare you chain of activation, so it becomes obvious where he is. The only way is to delay and hope for a FoW so he does not come onboard on the first reinforcement turn. For future thought, I am a fan of putting in the setup instructions that they can enter on the turn or any future turns. I don't like being forced to enter the board all on the same turn.
As for the game, it is done, finished with a big Japanese win. They were able to plaster the Americans with AT fire while they were still on the water. Twelve steps lost even before they hit the beach. Then the OBA kicked in with 2's and 12's taking out another six steps. Japanese OP fire and DF fire took out the rest. The Americans to some beach hexes but it was only about 15 possibly with more turns the Americans could clear more hexes, but they just could not get going until turn 8. Between the landings and the DIS/DEM from the OBA, they really were pinned for a little more than half the game. Wiping out the Colonel in the water did not help. Half the units were stuck in the sights of the AT guns for two turns. On the plus side, I nice assault on an entrenchment on the cliffs on board 80. Americans took heavy casualties, but once they assaulted the hex with INF, HMG and a +2 Captain was able to score a two step loss and then wipe out an offending AT gun. The Japanese 75/88 gun is a nasty spud. Place that in a key position and entrenchment and the Americans are in for lots of trouble. FLM units are disappointing. They usually get hit by some sort of fire before they can make a difference, but I find this with every game that uses them. Casements similarly troubling like the European counterparts. Luckily, they don't have AT values.
So those are my thoughts for now...
Alan, just wondering but did you roll for Japanese units being disrupted and demoralized from the pre-bombardment in the beginning of the scenario? Use those APCs like halftrack for extra fire power, stack of 3 plus three INF and you have some awesome firepower but that off-board artillery can hurt you. I wanted to simulate the hell on those Saipan Beaches! The Marine's KIA & WIA was huge on that first day.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - campsawyer - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 07:50 AM)Hugmenot Wrote: I have no clue whether this is a better approximation of reality but i would have carried on until the landing crafts hit the beach and then implemented the decapitation.
My interpretation is men would have landed and then asked what now?
Such interpretations do not bother me at all but then again, I am not adverse of calling a mulligan and starting over if I see a better strategy for either side after just a few turns.
I understand what you are saying and leads to other questions about beach landing I have posted to both recent PG developers. I took the rules as is for now.
As for starting over, I have stopped thinking about doing this as I have come to discover that with PG as time goes on other thing occurs that may give the game back over to the other side. In this one there was a couple of moments like this. I figured once the marines hit the beach and got out of the LVT's they could then close on the Japanese which they did, but 2x42 and 1x30 plus onboard mortars put a quick stop to that with racking up more losses. At that point one might call the game, but with firepower and leader ratings of the marines they are bound to do something to get themselves going. They did but ran out of time and not clearing enough beach.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - JayTownsend - 11-14-2012
I am hoping to start playing again on Friday! My memory is getting bad!
Alan, remember, only the first two scenarios are full on amphibous landcraft type, other than a Japanese counter landing at night a few minor ones, so by far you do not have to master the first two scenarios.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - campsawyer - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 07:56 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: Alan, just wondering but did you roll for Japanese units being disrupted and demoralized from the pre-bombardment in the beginning of the scenario? Use those APCs like halftrack for extra fire power, stack of 3 plus three INF and you have some awesome firepower but that off-board artillery can hurt you. I wanted to simulate the hell on those Saipan Beaches! The Marine's KIA & WIA was huge on that first day.
Yup, I did. Some disrupted some demoralized units, but this only apply to units outside the entrenchments. Given that the Americans have no OBA or fire that can touch the entrenchments, short of assault, I loaded them up with AT, HMG and INF's. Those outside were able to recover in a couple of turns while the Marines were still steaming toward the beaches. In my setup the Japanese had good fire zones for those AT weapons and I deployed two groups of assault groups to some of the weaker areas, but with long range AT fire the 75/88 and 47mm was devastating requiring hits on 8's and 9's. The 37mm were good to with required rolls of 10's. Take out the Colonel and now one group was stuck at sea right in range of the 47mm and a 37mm. Both scored hits on LVT-4's so there goes 6 steps. Nasty nasty stuff. Worse dice rolls could have gone the Americans way.
RE: Saipan:LVT's - campsawyer - 11-14-2012
(11-14-2012, 08:02 AM)JayTownsend Wrote: I am hoping to start playing again on Friday! My memory is getting bad!
Alan, remember, only the first two scenarios are full on amphibous landcraft type, other than a Japanese counter landing at night a few minor ones, so by far you do not have to master the first two scenarios.
I understand, I am just interested in the amphibious assaults as this is something that has not been completely shaken out with PG yet. I plan on trying a inland scenario next.