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RE: The City Fight - tanzerleader - 07-19-2012
does anyone know roughly how big a map of stalingrad would be in pg universe? not enlarged hexes (cassino 44) but standard ones.
could a set of geomorphic city boards work for european cities scenarios (berlin, stalingrad, budapest etc)
RE: The City Fight - beast013 - 07-21-2012
Stalingrad (outskirts and city itself) is approximately 40km long by 10km wide. Standard map is 3.4km (17 hexes) by 2.4km (12 hexes). So to pull out an entire map of the city would be 12 boards by five boards or 60 boards total. Big. Again, going with a higher-level map broken down into sectors (a sector being one or two mapboards), then you could direct your troops at a higher level and attack in selected sectors. This would not require that many mapboards nor tons of counters. This solution also fits into historical thought as sectors being attacked and defended (what did Hitler say - "Stalingrad has fallen. Only a few small sectors are not in our hands.").
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-12-2012
We've been giving this a lot of thought up here and have begun preliminary testing of Stalingrad. We're thinking about new terrain types; city, industrial, rubbled, etc. The city fits on 3 (roughly D size) maps. We're experimenting with company sized INF formations (like 1914) & allowing higher stacking (up to 7+ combat units, 2 companies + a support platoon) in the deep city. I'm convinced that it's do-able...Red Barricades is 18 hexes (3X6)
RE: The City Fight - JayTownsend - 10-12-2012
I remember some of those Philippines, Manila scenarios from long ago:
New Manila, Scenario 24
February 8th 1945
The 8th Cavalry secured a water facility still closer to Manila, but not before the regiment fought a pitched battle against the strongest resistance any troops of the 1st Cavalry Division encountered in the area north of the Pasig. Moving east across the San Juan River on 7 February, the 8th Cavalry pushed up to the northwest corner of New Manila Subdivision, where fire from the 1st Independent Naval Battalion and a supporting heavy weapons detachment stopped the advance. The subdivision extended northeast to southwest three blocks (about 850 yards) and twelve blocks (roughly 1,500 yards) southeast to the northern edge of San Juan del Monte Subdivision. The Japanese had heavily mined the streets within New Manila; pierced rock walls along the streets with slits through which 20-mm. machine cannon could fire; turned many homes into machine gun nests; and, at the southern edge of the subdivision, emplaced three dual-purpose naval guns so as to cover much of the suburb with point-blank, flat-trajectory fire.
Conclusion:
On 8 February the 8th Cavalry attacked again, supported by a company of mediums from the 44th Tank Battalion and by the 61st (105-mm. howitzers) and 947th (155-mm. howitzers) Field Artillery Battalions. The 105's fired ,360 rounds of high explosive into New Manila and San Juan del Monte suburbs and the 155's added another 350 rounds of the same type of ammunition. While this support succeeded in knocking out many Japanese strongpoints--and destroying many homes--it was inadequate to overcome all the opposition. The mine fields limited the effectiveness of tank support. The 8th Cavalry had to make short infantry rushes from one strongpoint to another to gain ground, but by the end of the day had substantially completed the reduction of the area. The task cost the 8th Cavalry 41 men wounded; the 44th Tank Battalion 11 men killed and 12 wounded. Three tanks were knocked out; one of them was completely demolished by a huge Japanese land mine. The 8th Cavalry and division artillery each claimed credit for all Japanese losses of men and matériel: the cavalry regiment averred it killed 350 Japanese and captured or destroyed 22 20-mm. machine cannon, 3 6-inch naval guns, and 5 13.2-mm. machine guns; the artillery's claims were the same 350 Japanese killed, and 23 20-mm. machine cannon, a 105-mm. howitzer, and a 6-inch naval gun destroyed.18 Be that as it may, the cavalry cleared the rest of the suburban area northeast and east of the city during the next few days with little trouble. The 1st Independent Naval Battalion, apparently deciding that discretion was the better part of valor, started withdrawing eastward with its 800 remaining troops on 10 February. The unit left behind about 500 dead and all its heavy weapons.
New Police Station Part II, Scenario 38
February 19th 1945
The 1st Battalion, 145th Infantry, took up the attack about 1015 on the 18th behind hundreds of rounds of preparatory fire from tanks and M7's.15 The battalion cleared the shoe factory and Santa Teresita College for good, and once more gained a foothold inside the New Police Station. Nevertheless, opposition remained strong all through the interior of the police station, while every movement of men past holes blown in the northwest walls by supporting artillery brought down Japanese machine gun and rifle fire from San Pablo Church, two blocks to the north. The 145th Infantry, like the 129th before it, found its grip on the New Police Station untenable and withdrew during the afternoon.
Conclusion:
Throughout the morning of 19 February the police station and the church were bombarded by the 75-mm. guns of a platoon of Sherman M3 tanks, a platoon of M4 tanks mounting 105-mm. howitzers, a platoon of 105-mm. SPM's, and most of a 105-mm. field artillery battalion. During the afternoon Company B, 145th Infantry, fought its way into the east wing of the police station, while other troops cleaned out San Pablo Church and the adjoining convent against suddenly diminished opposition. The hold on the New Police Station--the Japanese still defended the west wing--again proved untenable and again the troops had to withdraw. Finally, after more artillery and tank fire had almost demolished the building, Company C, 145th Infantry, secured the ruins on 20 February.
The Government Buildings, Scenario 43
February 26th, 1945
The XIV Corps-37th Division plan of assault called for intensive preparatory bombardment of each building by 155-mm. howitzers, Cannon Company 105-mm. SPM's, 75-mm. tank guns, 76-mm. TD weapons, and 4.2-inch and 81-mm. mortars. Upon the completion of bombardments, the 148th Infantry, 37th Division, would attack first the Legislative Building and then move on to seize the Finance Building. The 5th Cavalry would simultaneously reduce the Agriculture Building. Artillery fire was to begin on the morning of 24 February; the first infantry assaults would not take place until the morning of the 26th. Undeniably, the preparatory bombardments would lead to the severe damage, if not the destruction, of all three buildings, but again XIV Corps really had no choice.
Conclusion:
The 155-mm. howitzers of the 136th Field Artillery Battalion, providing point-blank fire at ranges from 150 to 800 yards, proved the most effective weapon during the preassault bombardment. To the artillerymen concerned, the credit and honor that thus accrued to them was hardly commensurate with the risks involved. Bringing its weapons forward to exposed positions where only the thin gun shield provided any protection from Japanese fire, the 136th Field Artillery gained a quick appreciation of the facts of life as seen by the infantry and cavalry. By the time the last of the government buildings had fallen, the artillery battalion had lost 5 men killed and 54 wounded to Japanese machine gun and rifle fire.
Well you get the point, it is not impossible to write urban/city scenarios for PG but it is difficult to follow through without the correct maps/terrain.
RE: The City Fight - JayTownsend - 10-12-2012
I had tons of rough draft scenarios at one time for the Philippines 1941-45 but it would have been just too large of a game for AP, even now it would cost struggling company too much cash flow. I think if they divided it into two game, 1941-42 & 1944-45 it would still need 8 maps for each game and about 600 counters for each game, so 1200 counters, 16 maps and most of my imformation lost on my old computer, I gave up on it.
RE: The City Fight - Shad - 10-12-2012
(10-12-2012, 02:36 PM)dxdavieau Wrote: We've been giving this a lot of thought up here and have begun preliminary testing of Stalingrad. We're thinking about new terrain types; city, industrial, rubbled, etc. The city fits on 3 (roughly D size) maps. We're experimenting with company sized INF formations (like 1914) & allowing higher stacking (up to 7+ combat units, 2 companies + a support platoon) in the deep city. I'm convinced that it's do-able...Red Barricades is 18 hexes (3X6)
Who's "we" ?
What do you mean by D-size maps?
How would the terrain types be differentiated? Movement costs? Stacking limits? I can't imagine visibility would ever be more than one hex...
RE: The City Fight - vince hughes - 10-12-2012
Shad,
Remember when I mentioned something like this a while back ? I was looking at Aachen City. It had a grand City park in one quarter. Dependent on park size, they can certainly extend to 2+ hexes in different directions. But everything else I presume in general would be 1 hex.
That said. I go for a walk most lunchtimes along the Thames embankment. From there, I can certainly see far more than 200 yards, but usually only of the other side of the river and its embankments. Perhaps the equivalent of 5 or 6 hexes of frontage in PG terms in some places, maybe even more ? Of course, on my own side of the river, viewing becomes limited again looking to each side. I guess bridges across city rivers would also give a good arc and LOS to locations.
Having been on some kind of PG forum for a while now, I know PG City fighting is not loved by most. But I still can't forget one of my favourite scenarios was Iron Line South from Fall of France. That was a city fight with 17 assault hexes at one point and both Wayne and I had a blast with it. As I said after, I think City fighting just needs some other factors in it to give it some variables. The trick is, finding what they could realistically be and making sure they have the ability to amuse the player.
RE: The City Fight - Blackcloud6 - 10-12-2012
One thing to keep in mind is that you do have to do the entire battle. ASL has done portions of Stalingrad: MMP/AH put out modules that covered the fight for the Red Barricades Factory and surrounding area and another on the fight for the Volga landings. CH did on the Grain Elevator and most recently on Mamev Kurgan. So I would recommend doing on of a specific part of the battle that would cover a few maps. Do it as small as you can and it might be more appealing to AP and could be a test of the waters with customers.
RE: The City Fight - Matt W - 10-12-2012
With assault being a more abstract approach to city combat and maneuver and command control such a large part of PG I can see a limited market for such a product. For those of us with imagination we can follow the ebb and flow of the urban combat through morale checks, failures and recoveries. For other players this can be a real turn off as many turns can pass by with very little from a game perspective happening except rolling dice.
I would love it but I can't see a boxed game getting the market it would need to make it profitable.
A "Designer's Kit" of urban terrain maps, however, for people who wanted to build their own scenarios would probably pay off.
RE: The City Fight - dxdavieau - 10-13-2012
Who's "we" ?
What do you mean by D-size maps?
How would the terrain types be differentiated? Movement costs? Stacking limits? I can't imagine visibility would ever be more than one hex...
We is myself & 2 other PzGers, D size is +/- 24"x36"
Mvt cost in city/industrial would be the same as town. Rubble might be as high as 5. Visibility looks to be 1 in most of the city but there are exceptions.
For stacking we're thinking 7 CU but could be higher given the attack densities that historically took place there. Entire regiments attacked individual buildings in the factories, BUT, most of these were not full strength & would usually attack with only 1 battalion forward at a time. A good battalion CO would likely keep a company back in reserve putting 2 in the line, hence, 7 CU is 2 Cos with a platoon of tanks....