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+--- Thread: [Rules] APC's in assault? (/showthread.php?tid=1265)
RE: APC's in assault? - Hugmenot - 01-05-2016
While neither the APC nor the unloaded unit may assault in the turn the unit unloads, they (both) do defend if assaulted so there are not exactly sitting ducks. In other words, they cannot attack on the turn the unloading occurs but they can defend on the urn the unloading occurs.
Unloading in the adjacent hex is risky due to the +2 column modifier the unloaded unit will be subject to when the enemy fire in their activation. But consider the alternative. If the foot unit was unloaded farther away, it would eventually move to 2 hexes away from the enemy where it would be subject to Opportunity Fire (+1 column modifier) and then adjacent to the enemy where it would be subject to a second Opportunity Fire (+1 column modifier for Opportunity Fire, +2 for Adjacent).
In general, I will unload my APC before reaching the assault hex. But there are two cases where I may not.
1. If the enemy is already demoralized and would defend on the "1" or "3" column while the APC attacks on the "9" column or better. The risk of the APC suffering an adverse result is minimal and the demoralized defenders are at risk of suffering a step loss due to failing a morale check by 3 or more. And I may get if free shot if they activate and failed to recover and flee.
2. If the enemy is already engaged in assault and I do not want the loaded units to be vulnerable to Direct Fire from other enemies (the armor from the APC does provide good protection). The APC has the option of entering the assault hex quietly (i.e.. without triggering an assault), unloads next turn, and follow up with a big assault the turn after.
The APC may not assault the turn it unloads its passenger because it is focusing on unloading its transported unit safely (the APC's MG would provide suppressing fire in that regards), and not on attacking the enemy. That's my interpretation and ymmv.
RE: APC's in assault? - enrique - 01-05-2016
Hugmenot says:
"Another possible strategy is as follows:
Turn 1: Loaded APC (with passenger) moves next to enemy units.
Turn 2: The APC and the transported unit conduct a move action to unload. While the enemy may NOT conduct Opportunity Fire against the unloading unit, they can use Direct Fire against it when they activate.
Turn 3: The APC and the unloaded unit conduct a fire action and assault the enemy."
In my opinion there is a mistake in the action of Turn 2. According to 4th edition rules, it is possible to conduct Opp. Fire against an unloading unit:
"Although it does not involve moving to a new hex, voluntary loading/unloading (5.61) and limbering/unlimbering (5.63) may trigger Opportunity Fire" (Rule 13.3).
RE: APC's in assault? - enrique - 01-05-2016
APC are very delicate and vulnerable units. I use them like this:
- As transport loading infantry units to come close to an enemy hex, but outside range of any AT fire and Direct Fire above column 7.
- Unloading.
- In scenarios with APC there are usually tanks as well. I send ahead a tank unit to "soften" with Direct Fire the enemy position.
- Approach separately infantry and APC units to this hex.
- Assault (tank, infantry, APC and leaders).
RE: APC's in assault? - Hugmenot - 01-05-2016
(01-05-2016, 05:00 AM)enrique Wrote: Hugmenot says:
"Another possible strategy is as follows:
Turn 1: Loaded APC (with passenger) moves next to enemy units.
Turn 2: The APC and the transported unit conduct a move action to unload. While the enemy may NOT conduct Opportunity Fire against the unloading unit, they can use Direct Fire against it when they activate.
Turn 3: The APC and the unloaded unit conduct a fire action and assault the enemy."
In my opinion there is a mistake in the action of Turn 2. According to 4th edition rules, it is possible to conduct Opp. Fire against an unloading unit:
"Although it does not involve moving to a new hex, voluntary loading/unloading (5.61) and limbering/unlimbering (5.63) may trigger Opportunity Fire" (Rule 13.3).
You are correct; my mistake.
RE: APC's in assault? - vince hughes - 01-06-2016
APC's are great firepower additions if already STACKED with the INF as they enter the assault and not being used as carriers at that point. They are also useful for sucking up casualties IF that be your wish, but losing 5 firepower points in one step may be seen as too high in certain Victory Condition situations. Overall, if entering the assault with INF and not transporting them they give great flexibility in the assaulting stacks options. I've always found that if used sensibly they can be a great addition. But if used as rashly they can add to the enemy's victory points, become a terrible risk if trying to carrier borne infantry in an AP environment and get neglected if not enough leaders around them to activate them (armour or infantry leaders).
RE: APC's in assault? - larry marak - 01-06-2016
I agree with Vince.
Personally I almost never use WW2 era apcs in assault. Wagons, trucks, and APCs are what turn infantry into mobile infantry. I try to play each scenario as if there is no turn limit and I have to fight again for at least the next two years.
Mobility allows you to seize advantagous terrain and isolate the enemy. The best victory is the one that doesn't cripple the winner.
RE: APC's in assault? - JayTownsend - 01-06-2016
(01-06-2016, 01:23 AM)vince hughes Wrote: APC's are great firepower additions if already STACKED with the INF as they enter the assault and not being used as carriers at that point. They are also useful for sucking up casualties IF that be your wish, but losing 5 firepower points in one step may be seen as too high in certain Victory Condition situations. Overall, if entering the assault with INF and not transporting them they give great flexibility in the assaulting stacks options. I've always found that if used sensibly they can be a great addition. But if used as rashly they can add to the enemy's victory points, become a terrible risk if trying to carrier borne infantry in an AP environment and get neglected if not enough leaders around them to activate them (armour or infantry leaders).
Yeah, I prefer Vince's method as well!
RE: APC's in assault? - Schoenwulf - 01-06-2016
Thank you to all for the thoughts as I'm finally getting some of the PG games off the shelf in my retirement years, and I've hit my first scenario that is replete with Hanomags. At first look, they seemed somewhat questionable for assault purposes, but there are some subtle advantages that have been shared, and most useful. This thread is another example of why PG-HQ is so worthy of support and patronage; as a newbie, it is invaluable for the thoughts shared by the vets in this system.
RE: APC's in assault? - vince hughes - 01-06-2016
(01-06-2016, 05:20 AM)Schoenwulf Wrote: Thank you to all for the thoughts as I'm finally getting some of the PG games off the shelf in my retirement years, and I've hit my first scenario that is replete with Hanomags. At first look, they seemed somewhat questionable for assault purposes, but there are some subtle advantages that have been shared, and most useful. This thread is another example of why PG-HQ is so worthy of support and patronage; as a newbie, it is invaluable for the thoughts shared by the vets in this system.
Schoen,
You are the first person in many a year I've seen refer to SdKfz 251's as Hanomags. When I first started playing on Skype against some of my opponents here, I'd often state I was moving "The Hanomag from hex whatever" and a few asked "What's a Hanomag". Nice to see somebody else use the terminology
(And if anybody is wondering why they were called a Hanomag, it was the name of the German train, tractor & truck builders that built the 250/251's - The name is short for the Hanovarische Maschinenbau Actien-Gesellschaft or Hanovarian Engineering Company)
RE: APC's in assault? - Hugmenot - 01-06-2016
Vince had no clue what I was saying when I announced the rank of the SS leaders on Skype; it was definitely part of my master plan to confuse him with my French accent.