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AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - Brett Nicholson - 09-27-2013
Okay, stupid question time. I am playing a solo scenario with a British Bishop unit which has an indirect fire value. I know it is an AFV as opposed to an APC but is it a unit that requires a tank leader or a regular leader to activate, or a leader of it's own like the armored car units? Simply put, is it able to be activated by a tank leader or not? I understand that it has an AT value but an indirect fire value as well. I suppose that I can assume since it is mechanized and not motorized an armored car leader could not activate it but is it really a tank? Basically does it have it's own leader type as a unique unit? What makes a tank a tank? ...lol... fine then, I'll answer my own question: actvated by a tank leader I suppose but in fact, the unit is self-propelled artillery with no direct fire capabilities and find it absurd for a tank leader to encourage this unit to make an assault against foot units with no direct fire value and thus may not be able to answer to a tank leader any more than an armored car unit or an artillery unit. But it does have an AT fire capability so I suppose tank leaders could ask it to advance and fire on other tanks, if they are avaialble as targets. If not, then is it technically a tank available for tank leaders to lead and for what purpose other than self-propelled artillery? Inquiring minds want to know, at least one. ;-)
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - plloyd1010 - 09-27-2013
As I understand it, any AFV other than armored cars, can be activated by a tank leader. Simple answer to your first question is yes.
The second answer is a little more complicated. The general rule is that something with this symbol
![[Image: Tank_Symbol.png]](http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/NATO_Symbols/Tank_Symbol.png)
is a "tank". By that definition, a Bishop is not a tank. SPA, SPAA, and such are usually not tanks, but watch the special rules.
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - Brett Nicholson - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 04:03 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: As I understand it, any AFV other than armored cars, can be activated by a tank leader. Simple answer to your first question is yes.
The second answer is a little more complicated. The general rule is that something with this symbol
Thanks for answering; I edited the original question attempting to complicate things more but I will go with your answer as it seems reasonable enough but at least you can see where it I was going with this. No special rules in this scenario but got jumbled on it. Thanks again!
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - vince hughes - 09-27-2013
Brett,
I believe there may be some small effort to address this issue 'officially' in future rule-sets ?
But don't quote me :-)
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - Brett Nicholson - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 08:02 AM)vince hughes Wrote: Brett,
I believe there may be some small effort to address this issue 'officially' in future rule-sets ?
But don't quote me :-)
Someone has to ask these questions Vince. I'm still very uncertain about portee' units at this point even though I had one question answered about them here already. Sometimes they are a truck, sometimes they are artillery, AT or AA units and sometimes, if they are lucky, they transform into tank destroyers. In the meantime I will continue to try to figure out what hills are ;-)
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - campsawyer - 09-27-2013
Hopefully this helps for portees:
Moves like a truck (Motorized)
Cannot unload the gun
Activated like a truck, self, stack or infantry leader
What would be nice is to have a counter to represent them.
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - Brett Nicholson - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 09:52 AM)campsawyer Wrote: Hopefully this helps for portees:
Moves like a truck (Motorized)
Cannot unload the gun
Activated like a truck, self, stack or infantry leader
What would be nice is to have a counter to represent them.
Right but in assaults let's say defending, if they were treated as trucks then they would be eliminated as collateral damage in addition to any other units there on an 'X' result; but against bombardment or direct fire they are not treated as the AT, AA or artillery pieces they have mounted, but as trucks. So I guess my follow-up question would be how they are affected defending in assault hexes; as trucks, as field pieces or as a normal unit ... whatever that is. Ah yes, and also, as trucks (or not trucks or transport) are they able to dig in?
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - campsawyer - 09-27-2013
From the standpoint of combat it is a "combat unit" as it has some type of firepower. So in an assault it would need to be eliminated as 1,2,3 result and not as a transporting truck. When it comes to the +1 shift for AT/AA/ART that is a grey spot. I would give them the shift because they are exposed just like a gun. With the dugin, as they are a combat unit, they can digin.
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - vince hughes - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 09:58 AM)nebelwurfer9 Wrote:(09-27-2013, 09:52 AM)campsawyer Wrote: Hopefully this helps for portees:
Moves like a truck (Motorized)
Cannot unload the gun
Activated like a truck, self, stack or infantry leader
What would be nice is to have a counter to represent them.
Right but in assaults let's say defending, if they were treated as trucks then they would be eliminated as collateral damage in addition to any other units there on an 'X' result; but against bombardment or direct fire they are not treated as the AT, AA or artillery pieces they have mounted, but as trucks. So I guess my follow-up question would be how they are affected defending in assault hexes; as trucks, as field pieces or as a normal unit ... whatever that is. Ah yes, and also, as trucks (or not trucks or transport) are they able to dig in?
Brett,
They won't be eliminated as collateral damage because that rule refers to 'Harmless enemies' & or transports. They are not harmless nor transports.
Loaded truck or artillery piece, either way it will receive the +1 in bombardment.
In assault, if they only have a bombardment factor or only an AT factor (2pdr portee), then I would give them a nominal factor of 1 (like mortars etc get).
On digging in, I would consider it an 'armed' unit and therefore can dig in. It says transports can not dig-in.
Simply put, and again referring to a new edition of rules. Portees need to be covered in a sentence or two whether or not transport rules apply to them or not.
RE: AFV units with indirect fire or: what makes a tank a tank? - rerathbun - 09-27-2013
(09-27-2013, 10:13 AM)campsawyer Wrote: From the standpoint of combat it is a "combat unit" as it has some type of firepower. So in an assault it would need to be eliminated as 1,2,3 result and not as a transporting truck. When it comes to the +1 shift for AT/AA/ART that is a grey spot. I would give them the shift because they are exposed just like a gun. With the dugin, as they are a combat unit, they can digin.
I did extensive reading on Portees for the Armor Notes on PG-HQ, and I concur with Campsawyer. One thing to add: in assault, they have an assault combat strength of 1, per Rule 12.42
(Added note: I see Vince beat me to the punch)