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Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - tlangston28 - 09-02-2013
Hello all,
Here is one that just came up in a PBEM Panzer Lehr game I am in:
2 units of M4s adjacent to an assault hex are firing AT into the assault. The assault hex contain a German Leader and PzIVF and a Disrupted US INF and the entire assault hex is surrounded by US forces. On their shots, the M4s destroyed the PzIVF, leaving the German leader in the hex with the U.S. DIS INF.
Is the Leader considered captured since there are no German combat units in the hex or do I have to actively "Assault" with the DIS INF unit to trigger the capture roll? Does that hex cease to be an assault hex when the AFV is destroyed, leaving the leader forced to either flee or surrender?
Remember, the hex is surrounded so the leader cannot flee anywhere.
My thought on this is that the leader is gone as well since he could not leave the hex. If there was an open spot, I would think that he could go there without triggering the capture roll since all the fire was AT.
Thanks,
Tony
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - vince hughes - 09-02-2013
Lone Leaders have no assault capability. He either has to depart (if the enemy fail to capture him on a 9+)as he is now alone in a hex with an enemy.
As he can not depart anyway, then capture it is !
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - Michael Murphy - 09-02-2013
Since I didn't see any mention in your original message I'd like to ask if you remembered to roll twice for Leader Casualties? First your leader has to roll per 6.7 Leader Casualties. As written, this rule applies to any friendly unit eliminated. I play that any AFV step lost counts as a step loss for the Leader Casualties modifier. I don't double any steps; trucks, wagons, and the like do not count for this roll.
Assuming that your leader survives your next step would be to roll again per rule 6.71 Lone Leaders. Assuming that whatever capped the troops hasn't killed you too, you now find yourself all alone with bad guys. That would suck so it's time to GTFOOD.
Hope that helps.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - campsawyer - 09-02-2013
I this case the leader is lost. If you want to split hairs, you could roll for the "kill" roll before he is captured.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - plloyd1010 - 09-02-2013
Yup, this guy is toast, since he cannot displace to an unoccupied hex. You may wish to roll to see who gets him, but what would be the point?
What I wonder is why he was in an assault hex with just a PzIVf.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - campsawyer - 09-02-2013
Quote: but what would be the point?
AAR. I like to put the story together with a bit more detail with the leader. He could be morally wounded, killed out right or captured.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - Shad - 09-02-2013
(09-02-2013, 10:07 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: What I wonder is why he was in an assault hex with just a PzIVf.
I was wondering how he managed to get totally surrounded. That's a rare feat!
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - tlangston28 - 09-03-2013
(09-02-2013, 07:19 AM)Michael Murphy Wrote: Since I didn't see any mention in your original message I'd like to ask if you remembered to roll twice for Leader Casualties? First your leader has to roll per 6.7 Leader Casualties. As written, this rule applies to any friendly unit eliminated. I play that any AFV step lost counts as a step loss for the Leader Casualties modifier. I don't double any steps; trucks, wagons, and the like do not count for this roll.
Assuming that your leader survives your next step would be to roll again per rule 6.71 Lone Leaders. Assuming that whatever capped the troops hasn't killed you too, you now find yourself all alone with bad guys. That would suck so it's time to GTFOOD.
Hope that helps.
We didn't roll for leader loss as the annotated rules under 6.7 Leader Casualties has a clarification note that leaders do not roll as a result of kills from AT shots or when loaded on an APC and casualties are taken. Also 6.71 only pertains to Direct and Bombardment Fire.
These were AT shots from outside the hex that ultimately destroyed the PzIV, not an assault.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - tlangston28 - 09-03-2013
(09-02-2013, 10:07 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: Yup, this guy is toast, since he cannot displace to an unoccupied hex. You may wish to roll to see who gets him, but what would be the point?
What I wonder is why he was in an assault hex with just a PzIVf.
There was also a GREN there at one point. He surrendered after trying to recover from a DEM status after a previous assault and failing. The hex was already surrounded at this point.
This is scenario 13 Road to St. Gilles - which has a huge American force entering the board trying to get off the opposite edge. These German units were one of several advance units hidden in the woods that I assume were to slow the Americans down. (I am playing the U.S. side). They became surrounded after I was able to find them, lock them in assault then bring in other units to provide support and cut off retreat.
RE: Lone Leader after AT Attack in Assault? - Michael Murphy - 09-03-2013
(09-03-2013, 01:33 AM)tlangston28 Wrote:(09-02-2013, 07:19 AM)Michael Murphy Wrote: Since I didn't see any mention in your original message I'd like to ask if you remembered to roll twice for Leader Casualties? First your leader has to roll per 6.7 Leader Casualties. As written, this rule applies to any friendly unit eliminated. I play that any AFV step lost counts as a step loss for the Leader Casualties modifier. I don't double any steps; trucks, wagons, and the like do not count for this roll.
Assuming that your leader survives your next step would be to roll again per rule 6.71 Lone Leaders. Assuming that whatever capped the troops hasn't killed you too, you now find yourself all alone with bad guys. That would suck so it's time to GTFOOD.
Hope that helps.
We didn't roll for leader loss as the annotated rules under 6.7 Leader Casualties has a clarification note that leaders do not roll as a result of kills from AT shots or when loaded on an APC and casualties are taken.
That's news to me. I don't off-hand recall this popping up very often so I never felt the need to look for clarification. Beyond that, the rule seems to be quite clear that any loss can trigger a leader casualty DR. IIRC, this is something that came up just recently on these forums.
Quote: Also 6.71 only pertains to Direct and Bombardment Fire.
These were AT shots from outside the hex that ultimately destroyed the PzIV, not an assault.
If I may say so, I wouldn't be so sure of that interpretation. I think you're combining two different parts of the lone leader rule 6.71 into something it isn't. The first sentence describes how lone leaders take combat losses due to enemy fire. That's where Direct Fire and Bombardment come into play. The subsequent sentences in the rule describes how lone leaders take losses and displacement due to enemy movement. The two processes are quite different in application and possible outcomes.
At least that's just MHO. No offense meant or taken.
Michael