+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Thread: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts (/showthread.php?tid=2312)
Pages:
1
2
The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - saracv3 - 07-13-2020
I have some questions concerning the reduced value German paratrooper MG. Is his a one step unit? Should it have an increased movement of three instead of a two since it is not an HMG? The 81 short mortar that the paratroopers carry has an increased movement factor to three. Possibly the 5-5 MG should be similar?
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - plloyd1010 - 07-13-2020
When reduced, it is one step, just like any other reduced unit. I don't see why it would have increased movement. The men in the unit would have just as much to do as they did before (as in stuff to carry). Yes it is an HMG.
I would contend that instead of 5-5, it should be 4-5. I will re iterate that argument again here. In an infantry unit, the DF strength is based more on the number of automatic weapons (LMG's, BAR's and the like) than on the number of rifles. In an infantry platoon, when a person with an automatic weapon is hit (especially with the larger ones), someone else will take their place and the weapon will continue to be served. This is because there are a large proportion of riflemen in the to serve as replacement gunners and loaders. In HMG/WPN units the manpower is arranged differently with everyone assigned to the operation and support of a particular machine-gun. This leave very few extras for when gunners, loads and ammo handlers are hit. So in an HMG/WPN unit, the firepower is more directly related to the number of casualties taken. That is why I think INF and HMG units should be different when reduced.
Before John Stafford they were different. Infantry when reduced was ½ strength rounded up. HMG units were ½ strength rounded down. (GREN and VAN were and are ½ strength round up with an additional -1.) It may have not been an adequate distinction of the differences, but is was a distinction. I have not heard any explanation why HMG reduced strengths were changed, though I have asked a few times. The only response seemed to be that change was unknowingly implemented and was not going to be reversed. That non-answer has never sat well with me.
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - rules_heretic - 07-14-2020
Wow! Interesting read! It's probably a case of having a plan but with so many games errors come in.
(I like the FRD rule for HMG/WPN units!)
FRD = Fractions Rounded Down
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - plloyd1010 - 07-14-2020
Thanks. I suspect the change was because John Stafford didn't know the nuances of the system very well. That is speculative, of course. I like distinctions between units, but despise a distinction with a difference. The round up, rather than down, makes HMGs slow infantry with assault problems.
FRD? Don't recall that abbreviation.
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - rules_heretic - 07-14-2020
I think it's time to get my Sharpie active! All HMG 9-x reduce to 4-x! HMG 7-x reduce to 3-x!
(Added footnote on FRD to above post.)
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - plloyd1010 - 07-14-2020
Maybe I should just make a big counter sheet.
Required numbers of which would be helpful. Like number of Heer HMGs in the game that has the most. Otherwise my max number will be 14.
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - cjsiam - 07-14-2020
(07-14-2020, 06:47 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: Maybe I should just make a big counter sheet.
Required numbers of which would be helpful. Like number of Heer HMGs in the game that has the most. Otherwise my max number will be 14.
How should VASSAL approach this Peter?
Do we need a separate "Corrections OOB" with correct units on it? ...could dump all the games into that module (all the corrected units) and just load
that every time and take from there when you need a specific correct unit (like the HMG...)
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - plloyd1010 - 07-14-2020
Vassal can have multiple versions of each counter. The HMGs would be like the Italian 65mm field guns. Alt+1 (the default) for the rounded down version, Alt+2 for the APL version. I've done it on a few other counters, but I don't really remember which. So far, all the Vassal HMG's are rounded down, except for the U.S. Para MGs. No one has complained so far.
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - triangular_cube - 07-14-2020
(07-14-2020, 07:31 AM)plloyd1010 Wrote: Vassal can have multiple versions of each counter. The HMGs would be like the Italian 65mm field guns. Alt+1 (the default) for the rounded down version, Alt+2 for the APL version. I've done it on a few other counters, but I don't really remember which. So far, all the Vassal HMG's are rounded down, except for the U.S. Para MGs. No one has complained so far.
Did you put a note on the OOB documentation when there is an alternate counter available? I didnt know I could be digging for those, but I am still learning vassal as I go.
RE: The 5-5 German Paratrooper MG Thoughts - plloyd1010 - 07-14-2020
(07-14-2020, 09:30 AM)triangular_cube Wrote: Did you put a note on the OOB documentation when there is an alternate counter available? I didnt know I could be digging for those, but I am still learning vassal as I go.
Whenever there has been an alternate, I have referenced it in the extension notes.