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Michael Murphy question unanswered. - enrique - 05-17-2015
Michael Murphy asked several months ago:
"4E Air Support Rules question
Last night I used an aircraft with an AT value to attack a tank unit and I consulted the 4E rules to see how this works. According to 11.4, "... these [aircraft] units fire on hexes using their Direct Fire values normally (15.11). In addition, if any vehicle units are in the hex attacked, the owning player rolls a number of dice ...", making an Anti-Tank attack as well. I jumped to 15.0 Special Unit Types to check out Special Aircraft Anti-Tank attacks. Here, in 15.13, the second paragraph ends with the sentence, "An aircraft may execute one type of attack OR the other (Anti-Tank or Direct Fire), not both."
Rule 11.4 permits aircraft to make both DF and AT Fire attacks at the same time while rule 15.13 prohibits such attacks. Can someone please clarify this puzzle for me?
Thanks."
Now I'm playing a Burning Tigers scenario and I have the same problem.
Does anyone know the answer?
Thanks
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - Michael Murphy - 05-18-2015
(05-17-2015, 05:25 PM)enrique Wrote: Michael Murphy asked several months ago:
"4E Air Support Rules question
Last night I used an aircraft with an AT value to attack a tank unit and I consulted the 4E rules to see how this works. According to 11.4, "... these [aircraft] units fire on hexes using their Direct Fire values normally (15.11). In addition, if any vehicle units are in the hex attacked, the owning player rolls a number of dice ...", making an Anti-Tank attack as well. I jumped to 15.0 Special Unit Types to check out Special Aircraft Anti-Tank attacks. Here, in 15.13, the second paragraph ends with the sentence, "An aircraft may execute one type of attack OR the other (Anti-Tank or Direct Fire), not both."
Rule 11.4 permits aircraft to make both DF and AT Fire attacks at the same time while rule 15.13 prohibits such attacks. Can someone please clarify this puzzle for me?
Thanks."
Now I'm playing a Burning Tigers scenario and I have the same problem.
Does anyone know the answer?
Thanks
Enrique, thanks for bringing this one back up for discussion. I never heard back on my question.
I guess it's time for me to repeat my original question. I won't re-copy it, it's quoted well enough above already.
While I'm waiting, what about infantry in Assault against vehicles? Under PG3, infantry could utilize both assault fire and their personal AT weapons at the same time. Now it appears that we have to choose one or the other. Please help me out, I'm more confused than anything else about this.
Michael
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - Hugmenot - 05-19-2015
Enrique, let me ask Matt and Mike B how do we issue errata and clarifications. There two sections are contradictory and I don't have an insight at what was the intent.
Michael, If you are referring to 11.5 Special Foot Anti-Tank Fire then you are correct. That applies to Foot units that possess short-range anti-tank weaponry, in addition to their printed combat values, that they can use in assault combat (12.0).
Note that Soviet ATR units have a printed AT combat value and thus do not fall under 11.5. 12.52 Fire Types In an Assault Hex is applicable to ATR units and thus the ATR unit can be activated to perform AT fire or to assault, but not both. 12.52 also applies to all units having a printed Anti-Tank and Direct Fire combat values (AT Guns, AFV's, etc).
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - richvalle - 05-19-2015
Yeah, I noticed that change in 4.0 too. It changed my assault vs vehicles in my ongoing battle with tlangston. I decided I didn't want to risk the miss chance of not getting an AT shot off as my pure assault roll against the unsupported tanks in the woods was pretty good.
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - otto - 05-19-2015
I humbly say that, as the only exception to version 4 changes, I preferred the old rule.
When the US player is against German AFVs with high defensive AT factors he might want not to use AT fire.
Furthermore I do not think that the whole platoon would give up all its firepower when using bazookas. There were just a few men managing them
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - richvalle - 05-19-2015
(05-19-2015, 03:13 AM)otto Wrote: I humbly say that, as the only exception to version 4 changes, I preferred the old rule.
When the US player is against German AFVs with high defensive AT factors he might want not to use AT fire.
Furthermore I do not think that the whole platoon would give up all its firepower when using bazookas. There were just a few men managing them
Good point. Plus, it's a 15 min turn.
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - Hugmenot - 05-20-2015
Under 4th edition rules, units defending in Assault can use their short-range AT weapons. In 3rd edition rules, only active units can.
My interpretation is you can go tank-hunting with your foot unit but at a price. The tank owner has a tough decision to make when he or she activates the assault hex.
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - Dan Storm - 08-31-2018
(05-17-2015, 05:25 PM)enrique Wrote: Michael Murphy asked several months ago:
"4E Air Support Rules question
Last night I used an aircraft with an AT value to attack a tank unit and I consulted the 4E rules to see how this works. According to 11.4, "... these [aircraft] units fire on hexes using their Direct Fire values normally (15.11). In addition, if any vehicle units are in the hex attacked, the owning player rolls a number of dice ...", making an Anti-Tank attack as well. I jumped to 15.0 Special Unit Types to check out Special Aircraft Anti-Tank attacks. Here, in 15.13, the second paragraph ends with the sentence, "An aircraft may execute one type of attack OR the other (Anti-Tank or Direct Fire), not both."
Rule 11.4 permits aircraft to make both DF and AT Fire attacks at the same time while rule 15.13 prohibits such attacks. Can someone please clarify this puzzle for me?
Thanks."
Good Evening All;
3 years have gone by without an outcome -
Forgive me for beating this dead horse yet again - but the situation has come up in a scenario I am currently playing and the future of a column of Panthers is at stake...
Does a Soviet IL-2-37 with a 24 in the top left corner and a 3 in a circle in the lower right corner get to attack on the 45 Column (22 Column + 2 for Adjacent) and hope for a 2X or a 3X AND Then get to roll [3] D6 in the hopes of rolling 6's for more step losses? 11.4
OR does it have to choose DF or ATF? 15.13.
Thank You!
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - richvalle - 08-31-2018
Both! Obviously both. It's both... right?
(Guess who he's playing and who has the planes!)
RE: Michael Murphy question unanswered. - plloyd1010 - 08-31-2018
I've seen rulings both ways. I've always played that they could do both for a couple reasons. Firstly it's a squadron sized attack, or at least a couple flights, so I imagine a lot of bullets and light cannon shells coming down all over. Secondly, the probability of kills is rather low, so doing both won't increase the vehicle kills that much. Are late war air attacks supposed to be devastating?