Which comes first - Op Fire of Minefields

[armyduck95]

So when a unit enters a minefield hex, and an enemy wants to fire opportunity fire, which happens first?
- If I interpret the rules correctly, the effects of a minefield are not an attack, but negative effect of movement in the hex. Therefore I surmise the minefield effect is first as the cost of entering the hex and then opportunity fire can occur.

[campsawyer]

From the rule, I see nothing that states which is first, but given that the non-moving player is in control of both dice rolls, I would assume the order is there choice.

As I side note, the +1 shift for DF into targets in minefields can be deadly, especially when coupled with the moving +1 bonus. I really like this to get one to cover minefields with DF.

[larrymm]

I'm going on slim evidence here as there is no (AFAIK) direct statement in the rules to support me:

For Minefields, 16.71 states "When a unit enters a hex containing one or more minefields…"
For Op Fire, 13.11 states "Fire must be resolved before the unit enters a new hex."

I interpret these statements to imply that minefield effects occur as soon as the unit enters the hex, while Op Fire is a more deliberative affair that occurs "before the unit enters a new hex." Thus, minefield effects are applied first and only then is Op Fire resolved.
Again, this is my reading of the rules, but it does seem to me to be the desired "real word" analog: minefields are laid not so much to destroy enemy units but rather to channel them into killing zones where Op Fire can then be applied to maximum effect.

[vince hughes]

Oh just let the defender choose eh !

What I do know is that when we were playing "The Chosen" scenario, Wayne's Russkies suffered horribly with +3 col modifier against them when receiving PB Opp fire and then already DEM units being compunded DEM by mine attack results.

[campsawyer]

Wayne is brutal with those Soviets :-0

One other thought on the sequence, OP fire is voluntary, so the firer can chose (no pun intended) whether to shoot or not, while mine attacks are mandatory. To me, I would take the mine attack first, see the results then OP if needed. No sense OP firing if the unit is going to be blown up by the mines. Either way, it's not very good to move into a minefield covered by DF.

[Brett Nicholson]

All this time playing solitaire I never noticed the column shift for DF against units on minefields, only the one for bombardment on the fire tables! One more reason that I am not too enthusiastic about storming Vince's Italian positions which are totally surrounded by minefields in our ongoing 'Tobruk' scenario. Glad this topic was brought up before we continue on with that one! While on topic I would ask if leaders are also affected by minefield effects even after combat units have moved ahead of them first? The opportunity fire part is understood.

[campsawyer]

While on topic I would ask if leaders are also affected by minefield effects even after combat units have moved ahead of them first?

There was some discussion on this a while back and the ability to send in a lowly LT. to "discover" the minefield. I believe the consensus was it was that leaders and transports, trucks, wagons, etc, but not APC's, were not affected by the mines.

[Brett Nicholson]

Something else that 4th edition rules will hopefully address in distinguishing units and leaders as either separate entities or both being counted as units per certain rules. If a leader decides to move together with a combat unit into a minefield then I would be inclined to believe that it may suffer the same fate, as a leader would be amongst the herd and minefields do not discriminate friend, foe or rank. But if a combat unit was sent in first, then the leader in the same activation I would like to believe that the "grunts" would take the intial impact but warning their leader (hopefully) where "safe" ground was in the same hex.

[vince hughes]

Brett,

What was actually decided is that the owner of the mines could state whether he wished to 'attack' with the mines if only a truck or leader or wagon was sent in. However, once a genuine combat unit (inc APC's) entered, then mines would attack as per the rules.

This was to avoid gamey recon attempts by using useless trucks. So far, the rule has worked well.

[Brett Nicholson]

Brett,

What was actually decided is that the owner of the mines could state whether he wished to 'attack' with the mines if only a truck or leader or wagon was sent in. However, once a genuine combat unit (inc APC's) entered, then mines would attack as per the rules.

This was to avoid gamey recon attempts by using useless trucks. So far, the rule has worked well.

Okay then, so in no case are leaders immune to minefields? Even if combat units were sent in ahead first? I wasn't questioning sending a leader in first but good to know the owning player can decide whether the minefield is revealed by recon efforts that way.