4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap!

[Airlifter]

I won't promise you a rose garden

I beg your pardon ?

Don't you know the song? Geez i'm old.

[Airlifter]

When re-writing, be careful where the word UNIT and leader are used. It should be made clear as sometimes I think there has been a miss where perhaps unit has been used rather than leader or unit.

Want a counter with an arrow so units can be designated what side of the river they are on in a hex.

The old squad leader barb wire counters (which had no modifiers on) were far more attractive than PG barbed wire.

Swamp needs clarifying as it has different effects in different sets.

Same for hedgerows, hedges and bocage. There are 3 different iterarions I believe.

Penal unit rules need clarifying (for some). It needs to be made clear that they MUST advance to nearest enemies and that an activation is not able to be 'passed' so as to avoid activating them.

Lets get clarified what constitutes a 'tank' for the +1 bonus in assault combat.

Make obvious in the rules what fighting vehicles need 'foot' leaders to actate them (such as self-propelled artillery whether armoured or truck borne .... who activates them)

Lets insert Non-DEM ENG units when adding the +1 bonuses they get.

Lets clarify controlled hexes by adding a 'disputed' hex for VC's. Also clarify whether a DEM unit counts as controlling a hex if it was the last to enter the hex but was fleeing.

In assault modifiers, add to the non-DEM leader that he does not affect AFV's but DOES modify APC's.

As there is no overrun, how about a +1 column for assaulting a hex with ordnance only enemy. (I still don't like a lone mortar platoon being able to stop a stack of tanks running through it but .... )

Needs to be clarified whether cavalry can charge a unit they can not see ? (sounds daft, but it came up in a game Wayne and I played)

As much as I like their freedom of movement when I have them, I think MTC's need some kind of dismount rule before engaging and DF. (Perhaps a simple +1 MP)

Can we make gun dragging universal throughout the game system rather than differet types or even none from module to module.

Does the 75mm IG warrant a +2 DF modifier against it. Very small silhouette and many times its better to keep them at the back of a battle and not get them involved to save the VP loss for when they are wiped out.

HIP perhaps for all AT guns that set-up on board at scenario start. They are too often bombed to bits before even get a chance to take part. However, rather than allocate them normal hidden unit rules, they should be open to normal spotting. Therefore, if in a limiting terrain, they are spotted from 3 hexes rather than 1 hex as per normal hidden units.

Surrender rules need to go in main rule set as again, there are different iterations. South Africa's war are the best and it should be made clear that units calling for surrender should stay adjacent and not move along doing it.(see the Desert Rat surrender rules that if read to the word, allow such a thing).

How about a rule for morale no higher than 10 for any UNIT (not leader) after all mods etc

Minefields: To avoid gameyness, lone leaders and trucks should not be allowed to scout minefields. APC's fine, but trucks NO.

Tanks as transports: Lots of rules missing from the 'special ones'. Can't remember which, but a player (long since gone who was frustrated with the rules loop-holes' posed a number of questions about when they are fired at. There were no answers in the rules. Maybe one of the other posters here will remember tankdudes Q's. But they were valid.

Thats a few for now, I'll try and think of some more.

I have purposely left out anything I remember as added to the annotated rules or dealt with in the PGHQ doc.

Are you sure you didn't leave anything out Vince? Oh, I see you have more posts <sigh> LOL.

[Michael Murphy]

I won't promise you a rose garden

I beg your pardon ?

Don't you know the song? Geez i'm old.

Good Lord, I caught on right away!

Yes, I'm old too!

[Airlifter]

4th edition rules

Proposals

1.2 Definitions

Control. The same definition as in "Infantry Attacks":

"A hex is controlled by the player whose combat units
were the last ones to occupy the hex exclusively. If one or more
units of both sides currently occupy the same hex, then neither
side currently controls the hex. In scenarios where one side sets
its units up on the board and the other side’s units enter from one
or more board edges at game start, all hexes on the board begin
play under the control of the side that sets up on the board. In
scenarios where both sides set units up on the board at game start,
each hex begins play under the control of whichever side sets
up units in or closer to it (unless scenario rules say otherwise).
Hexes which begin play equidistant from units of both sides
start under the control of the player who set up first, per scenario
instructions. In scenarios where no units set up on the board at the
start of the game (both sides’ units enter during play), all hexes
begin play under nobody’s control and remain uncontrolled until
physically occupied by at least one combat unit of one side or the
other".

Safe hex
"A town, woods or other hex where a unit cannot be spotted and/or fired on by enemy units with Direct or AT fire (whichever fire type could hurt it), and any hex where a unit can not be assaulted by enemy units".

3.1 Action segments (2nd point)
Replace "All units stacked together in the same hex activating at once, with or without leaders"
for
"Some or all units stacked together..."

4.1 Stacking Limits
Add: "Units in excess of stacking limits at the end of the segment are eliminated (owning player’s choice)".

5.63 Limbering and Unlimbering (Mortars)
Add: "Limbering or unlimbering a mortar unit costs all of that unit’s MPs and takes up its entire activation (place a MOVED/FIRED marker on it immediately after flipping it)". That is,a mortar can not "flip" and move in the same action segment.

5.64 Self-Propelled Artillery
Add: "They can be activated by all friendly regular leaders AND tank leaders."

5.75 Combat Effects of Rivers
Delete this rule: "If the ENG assisting a crossing becomes disrupted or demoralized, so do all friendly units in the hex with it at the time".

6.6 Kommissars
Add: "They may not assist demoralized AFVs".

(To be continued)

Enrique, Thank you for the injects (I see you have more later. Could you please give me some rationale for these changes. Some are not obvious to me.
Thanks.
John

[Airlifter]

Please add picture diagrams....

Is that okay to ask?

Nero,
You can ask for anything. If it's reasonable and useful we will add it. Could you be more specific? What do you think needs a clarifying diagram that does not already have one?
Cheers,
John

[Airlifter]

It's always OK to ask.

And I agree with you 100%.

When you say picture diagram, do you mean color pics of counters like in the annotated rules, vice the grayscale diagrams in the current rules? Or are you asking for MORE diagrams?
Thanks.
John

[Airlifter]

7.63 Assault
I would apply the rule of the first and second editions: all AFVs are immune to "M" and "M #" results. They are only affected by "1", "2" and "3" results. Under the current rules AFVs are the weakest units in assaults: they do not take advantage of the leaders' morale modifiers and also suffer the effects of the small and portable AT arms (Panzerfäuste and bazookas)

Love this. Yes yes yes.

Please add picture diagrams....

Is that okay to ask?

Yes, ok to ask. Are looking for pictures of the counter? If so, there is nothing designed yet. Just looking for other status markers that could be useful.

I think he was referring to diagrams illustrating certain rules, rather than marker sheet mock-ups.

My research on tanks in close combat are that tanks die fast to infantry in close terrain, whether they have good AT guns or not. In the open, infantry should fear tanks. Rules should reflect that reality regardless of how long the game has been written a certain way. Anyone have different research/knowledge?
Cheers,
John

[Airlifter]

I haven't had a lot of time lately but here is one:

Placement of Wreck counters for not only Bridges and town hexes but also for Tanks/AFVs eliminated or reduced while traveling on a road hex.

If the vehicle's can generate a wreck in a town or bridge hex it should also be capable of leaving a wreck in other terrain as well. How about when the target is in a woods hex or on an embankment? Shouldn't any restrictive terrain be eligible for wreck placement?

All the current terrain, and the proposed roads, are constricted terrain. The hex is 200M square (more or less, but the road or bridge, or town (buildings and roads really) are narrow and constricting. Losing a couple tanks in there makes it rough to move through for other vehicles. Open terrain would take a BUNCH of lost tanks to make it tough to pass by. In one 1967 scenario the Israelis lost almost 50 tanks in a small valley, yet congestion on the battlefield was not the problem. But telling which tanks were dead and which could still fire--now THAT was a problem. In that case, the Israelis intentionally played doggo until the Jordanians (I think) came off the hill and then shot them up. Surprise!
John

[Airlifter]

all AFVs are immune to "M" and "M #" results. They are only affected by "1", "2" and "3" results.

I am not comfortable with this one. I believe tanks are vulnerable in assault and a DIS/DEM result means more than being frightened by the enemy but damage that might be repaired over a short time.

If any change is required, I would be inclined to allow leader morale mods in assaults for tanks rather than diminishing results.

I think I agree with you here - I am not an armored expert by any stretch but I would imagine that the restricted view from within the tanks coupled with a limited close range direct fire (and here, I am assuming that the DF on tanks represents .50 Cal or equivalent MGs and possibly HE rounds) would make them susceptible to infantry that is able to get inside the defensive "fire" perimeter so to speak and drop grenades, attach satchel charges, sticky bombs or whatever else they would use.

I'd like to hear Duane wade in on this one.
John

[Airlifter]

Shad, you are good with the graphics, could you whip something up?

I'd be happy to make print-quality graphics similar to the versions I did for our Annotated Rules provided someone first creates agreed-upon mock-ups with real counters and sends over photos. That saves time.

I LOVE the idea, and stole the ones in the annotated rules and put them into my current draft 4th ed. Even added a few quick mock ups of my own using graphics off this site--it's amazing what you can do with MS Paint and Powerpoint. Now if i can talk Dr. B into printing rules in COLOR we'll have a quality product.
John