Should Caves have Fire-First or not?

[JayTownsend]

Between, Mike, John and myself I think we finally have the cave rules that make the most sense in Saipan, correcting the Guadalcanal cave rules. I really like them as written in Saipan. They are similar to entrenchments as stated but not exact as I never put the fire-first rule into them. My reasons were this, caves are already too strong and true all types of Engineer units (FLM, ENG & Satan) cancel the fire-first benefit out, also caves are limited to an enemy approach to only the opening of the cave, so in reality some units could find a cave before the unit occupying see their attacker, unless there is a unit in the same cave hex but not inside. Caves now only receive a -2 modifier but I would be interested in knowing if you guys agree with me on caves not have fire-first?

[Hugmenot]

I won't have an opinion until I play a few scenarios with the new cave rules.

Does anyone know what was the marine standard procedure when they found a cave? Toss a few grenades just in case and risk revealing your position to enemies outside the cave, investigate quietly, or something else entirely?

[Poor Yorek]

Perhaps during the initial entry of the attacking unit into the cave hex (in game terms, the initial assault on the cave hex)? Perhaps this would simulate the initial difficult entry of the attacker into the mouth of the cave, whereas once that is accomplished (after the initial assault movement), the benefit of First Fire no longer attains?

Disclaimer: I don't have any of the PacFrnt games so I'm not familiar with the rules. This is therefore admittedly just an off-the-cuff thought.

PS. I suppose by extension, any time an assault is reinforced from outside, defenders would gain FF benefit (simulate difficulty in coordinating new forces entering the cave)? Again, thinking out loud here.

[joe_oppenheimer]

I think if you designed and playtested Saipan with caves not having first fire than that is how I will play it.

[vince hughes]

I would be interested in knowing if you guys agree with me on caves not have fire-first?

Like Joe, who I presume is now wearing clothes ???? (Strange news item about SF here today in the UK), I think they should be played to your design Jay.

Failing that, I think only those that think themselves the best of history experts and not gamers should answer

[campsawyer]

Jay, I have to say I am with Vince and Joe. If that is how it is designed that is how it should be played. My issue is that this needs to be in the SSR for caves. The caves rules modifications for inside/out and a loser retreat are good but there are just holes in the writing. So keep it as no First Fire, just put it in the rules.

[Poor Yorek]

Failing that, I think only those that think themselves the best of history experts and not gamers should answer

I certainly hope that I made clear that I was not masquerading as a "best of history expert." I trust my earlier post was taken in the sense it was offered based on Jay's solicitation, namely as a potential option were one considering bringing in FF to the cave terrain issue (perhaps in a limited way), not that I disagree with the rule as it apparently exists which is no FF.

[vince hughes]

I certainly hope that I made clear that I was not masquerading as a "best of history expert." I trust my earlier post was taken in the sense it was offered based on Jay's solicitation, namely as a potential option were one considering bringing in FF to the cave terrain issue (perhaps in a limited way), not that I disagree with the rule as it apparently exists which is no FF.

PY,

LOL - You were not even in mind and it was nothing to do with the posts on here.

[Poor Yorek]

PY,
LOL - You were not even in mind and it was nothing to do with the posts on here.

A relief to hear.

Btw, I'm about to put those blue counters you sent to good use.

[larry marak]

I guess it all boils down to what is being modeled, what scale it is being modeled on, and the historical results. Jay's the one who has taken the deepest look into this, so I'll go along with his judgement call.