Aircraft Targeting Issue

[treadasaurusrex]

In a recent shared play, we encountered an interpretation question relative to whether or not units in clear terrain adjacent to an assault hex containing leaders of both sides would be considered "spotted" for purposes of targeting air strikes.

Rule 15.11 states that: "Aircraft may potentially attack any hexes on the board as they have unlimited range. However, they are prohibited from attacking unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain and all hidden units (see Optional Rules)."

One of us has always interpreted this as meaning that only enemy units that are spotted by a friendly leader may be attacked by aircraft, along the lines of the existing spotting rules for OBA bombardments. The other player, interprets this rules as meaning that it is the attacking aircraft that is doing the spotting, not a friendly leader on the map board. Hence a unit in CLEAR terrain may be attacked by aircraft without needing to be spotted by a friendly leader.

What do you all think about this case?

[Shad]

Man this is a lot like the 2nd Amendment: how you group the words changes the meaning entirely.

However, they are prohibited from attacking unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain and all hidden units

To me this is the grouping:

• unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain
  
• all hidden units
  

Therefore a piece (unit) in any clear hex on the map layout is fair game, spotted or otherwise. Units occupying limiting terrain must be spotted. Hidden units that you can see due to cardboard necessity are off-limits entirely.

My take

[Blackcloud6]

One of us has always interpreted this as meaning that only enemy units that are spotted by a friendly leader may be attacked by aircraft, along the lines of the existing spotting rules for OBA bombardments. The other player, interprets this rules as meaning that it is the attacking aircraft that is doing the spotting, not a friendly leader on the map board. Hence a unit in CLEAR terrain may be attacked by aircraft without needing to be spotted by a friendly leader.

 
Neither of you are correct.  8.0 has your answer: "Spotting is seeing the enemy so you can shoot him, and is only performed by combat units (1.2), and sometimes leaders. 

Aircraft don't spot.  Leaders need to spot for bombardment fire and aircraft do not use bombardment fire.   The aircraft can only target spotted units thus the target must be spotted before the aircraft is placed, and "spotted" in this case is any unit with a spotted marker on it on ne within spotting range of a friendly unit not in limited terrain.   No leader is required.  You both are reading something in the rule that is not there.

[plloyd1010]

Rule 15.11 states that: "Aircraft may potentially attack any hexes on the board as they have unlimited range. However, they are prohibited from attacking unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain and all hidden units (see Optional Rules)."

One of us has always interpreted this as meaning that only enemy units that are spotted by a friendly leader may be attacked by aircraft, along the lines of the existing spotting rules for OBA bombardments. The other player, interprets this rules as meaning that it is the attacking aircraft that is doing the spotting, not a friendly leader on the map board. Hence a unit in CLEAR terrain may be attacked by aircraft without needing to be spotted by a friendly leader.

One of you clearly has the wrong interpretation. A large part seems to be the question between Target Spotting and Spotting in Limiting Terrain. This is another place where a different word should have been used, because the crossover causes confusion.

The salient concept here is that a unit does not become spotted when fired upon by an enemy, even if that enemy is within 3 hexes. Thus the target is still "Unspotted". Ergo, even though the aircraft are considered to be attacking from an adjacent hex, they do not make the enemy pieces spotted and thus may not attack.

Drew has it right.

[Shad]

the fact that treadasaurusrex has liked every post in this thread so far, despite them contradicting each other, is giving me endless amusement

20 pages to go, gentlemen. Who's going to swoop in with a third wholly unforeseen interpretation?

[treadasaurusrex]

Ah yes, welcome to the wide world of PG rule interpretation!

Gotta appreciate the people taking the time, and energy, to try their hand at sorting out this confusing and poorly-written stuff.

[cjsiam]

One of us has always interpreted this as meaning that only enemy units that are spotted by a friendly leader may be attacked by aircraft, along the lines of the existing spotting rules for OBA bombardments. The other player, interprets this rules as meaning that it is the attacking aircraft that is doing the spotting, not a friendly leader on the map board. Hence a unit in CLEAR terrain may be attacked by aircraft without needing to be spotted by a friendly leader.

 
Neither of you are correct.  8.0 has your answer: "Spotting is seeing the enemy so you can shoot him, and is only performed by combat units (1.2), and sometimes leaders. 

Aircraft don't spot.  Leaders need to spot for bombardment fire and aircraft do not use bombardment fire.   The aircraft can only target spotted units thus the target must be spotted before the aircraft is placed, and "spotted" in this case is any unit with a spotted marker on it on ne within spotting range of a friendly unit not in limited terrain.   No leader is required.  You both are reading something in the rule that is not there.

The stricture in the rule is:
"However, they are prohibited from attacking unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain "

So Only units unspotted, in limiting terrain, would be immune to aircraft....

If you're not in limiting terrain, you can be targeted.  
It's doesn't say they can only target spotted units---it says that in limiting terrain, it can only target spotted units....

So the lone tanks behind that forest in open ground, happily traversing the open ground, trying to sneak around that flank
where there are no enemy units to spot them--or on that road none of the enemy can see in the open---gets bombed....

Enemy units in CLEAR terrain CAN be bombed by aircraft--spotting is non-sequitur in this case....
(be in a field...it'd be different...)

[Grognard Gunny]

Tread; It ain't that the language is written poorly, it's the fact that that one CAN'T forsee every circumstance. (Otherwise the rules would become unmanageable in size.) They rely on "common sense" to resolve any differences. Therein lies the rub. (...and I'll let the reader figure out what, exactly, I am talking about.  )

GG

[goosebrown]

I agree with Shad. Any piece in non-limiting terrain or hidden MAY be attacked from the air. 

In limiting terrain, ONLY spotted units may be attacked. 

So I also agree with CJSiam. If a tank is tooling around out of sight but in the open it CAN be attacked

Back in the day they did not have a lot of ground to air communications and the air support was often more general so they were expected to open their eyes and look for targets. Think of all those Thunderbolts and Typhoons in Normandy looking for targets. That is how it should work in PG

[Greyfox]

One of us has always interpreted this as meaning that only enemy units that are spotted by a friendly leader may be attacked by aircraft, along the lines of the existing spotting rules for OBA bombardments. The other player, interprets this rules as meaning that it is the attacking aircraft that is doing the spotting, not a friendly leader on the map board. Hence a unit in CLEAR terrain may be attacked by aircraft without needing to be spotted by a friendly leader.

 
Neither of you are correct.  8.0 has your answer: "Spotting is seeing the enemy so you can shoot him, and is only performed by combat units (1.2), and sometimes leaders. 

Aircraft don't spot.  Leaders need to spot for bombardment fire and aircraft do not use bombardment fire.   The aircraft can only target spotted units thus the target must be spotted before the aircraft is placed, and "spotted" in this case is any unit with a spotted marker on it on ne within spotting range of a friendly unit not in limited terrain.   No leader is required.  You both are reading something in the rule that is not there.

The stricture in the rule is:
"However, they are prohibited from attacking unspotted enemy pieces located in limiting terrain "

So Only units unspotted, in limiting terrain, would be immune to aircraft....

If you're not in limiting terrain, you can be targeted.  
It's doesn't say they can only target spotted units---it says that in limiting terrain, it can only target spotted units....

So the lone tanks behind that forest in open ground, happily traversing the open ground, trying to sneak around that flank
where there are no enemy units to spot them--or on that road none of the enemy can see in the open---gets bombed....

Enemy units in CLEAR terrain CAN be bombed by aircraft--spotting is non-sequitur in this case....
(be in a field...it'd be different...)

       As an old OPFOR Leader at Hohenfels, Germany, and with years of experience moving or maneuvering mechanized or motorized columns on dirt roads or tank trails in both training and while deployed - I can attest that where ever you go dust is consistent.  Unless there is snow, or the ground is damp from rain, vehicles kick up dust.  Lots of vehicles kick up lots of dust high into the air - creating dust columns that you can see from a distance, even over hill tops and in the next valley.   Moving on dry dirt roads or tank trails is necessary, even in close proximity to the enemy, because it is the fastest way to move move troops.
     When you  close with the enemy, you deploy your force from column to line to attack or defend.  When that happens you typically deploy and attack across open fields (grass) - eliminating any dust columns.   That would also support your argument that pilots can see search for an find vehicles or concentrations of vehicles without being told to do so.

Mike