Remedial Assault Hex Exiting

[Grognard Gunny]

I believe the rules state something to the effect that ALL Demoralized units; first, roll for morale (to bring it up to "Disrupted"), failing that, the next step is the retreat step..... all Demoralized units MUST leave the assault hex. This MAY or MAY NOT be with a Leader.

Again, this leaves little room for "leaving a Demoralized unit behind".....", acccording to Hoyle, anyway.

I sometimes misread places in the rules where demoralized is construed, by me, to be a generic term rather than a specific term used to denote a more serious condition than merely Disrupted.

(I'm SOOOO confused!)

GG

[J6A]

Here's another assault hex fleeing issue.

I have a unit in an assault hex that is supposed to flee, but all 6 hexes around it are occupied by enemy units.  So, I think 14.33 governs and he goes to ground.

However, then I notice that one of the hexes is occupied only by a loaded wagon.  6.71 says units can freely enter hexes containing only transports, and that they eliminate the transports.

It seems odd to me that fleeing units could eliminate anyone, even just a loaded transport.  And the rules aren't clear on this.

Any thoughts?

[triangular_cube]

Here's another assault hex fleeing issue.

I have a unit in an assault hex that is supposed to flee, but all 6 hexes around it are occupied by enemy units.  So, I think 14.33 governs and he goes to ground.

However, then I notice that one of the hexes is occupied only by a loaded wagon.  6.71 says units can freely enter hexes containing only transports, and that they eliminate the transports.

It seems odd to me that fleeing units could eliminate anyone, even just a loaded transport.  And the rules aren't clear on this.

Any thoughts?

12.13 says the fleeing unit is eliminated.

[triangular_cube]

I believe the rules state something to the effect that ALL Demoralized units; first, roll for morale (to bring it up to "Disrupted"), failing that, the next step is the retreat step..... all Demoralized units MUST leave the assault hex. This MAY or MAY NOT be with a Leader.

Again, this leaves little room for "leaving a Demoralized unit behind".....", acccording to Hoyle, anyway.

I sometimes misread places in the rules where demoralized is construed, by me, to be a generic term rather than a specific term used to denote a more serious condition than merely Disrupted.

(I'm SOOOO confused!)

GG

You are still bound by the framework of the activation system. The units must activate to attempt recovery, it is not a free action, although it is a mandatory action at some point in the turn (unless cut off by Fog of War). The player agency enters the picture in how and when they choose to activate those demoralized units to recover/flee. If you have a stack of 2 x INF (dem), you can self activate one unit to attempt recovery, have it fail, and have it flee out of the assault hex, there is no free shot because there are still other friendly units in the hex. If you activate the stack to recover simultaneously, and they both fail, then they leave the hex in the same activation, and thus are both hit with the free shot.

[cjsiam]

I believe the rules state something to the effect that ALL Demoralized units; first, roll for morale (to bring it up to "Disrupted"), failing that, the next step is the retreat step..... all Demoralized units MUST leave the assault hex. This MAY or MAY NOT be with a Leader.

Again, this leaves little room for "leaving a Demoralized unit behind".....", acccording to Hoyle, anyway.

I sometimes misread places in the rules where demoralized is construed, by me, to be a generic term rather than a specific term used to denote a more serious condition than merely Disrupted.

(I'm SOOOO confused!)

GG

You are still bound by the framework of the activation system. The units must activate to attempt recovery, it is not a free action, although it is a mandatory action at some point in the turn (unless cut off by Fog of War). The player agency enters the picture in how and when they choose to activate those demoralized units to recover/flee. If you have a stack of 2 x INF (dem), you can self activate one unit to attempt recovery, have it fail, and have it flee out of the assault hex, there is no free shot because there are still other friendly units in the hex. If you activate the stack to recover simultaneously, and they both fail, then they leave the hex in the same activation, and thus are both hit with the free shot.

All true....but...
1) you have to activate 1 unit at a time---1 per activation-- in order to run out a demoralized unit without chance of free shot in your example--RAW.
2) if you had a "un-demoralized" unit in the hex---you COULD NOT activate it at the same time as one of the DEM units--to move/fire:

  1.1 Summary of Concepts
Action Segments: In an action segment, a player can activate one unit, or a stack of units, or a leader and all units of his type (regular or tank) in his hex...

(Point being the above does not say "some units in the hex" it says "ONE", "a stack"(the units in the hex--ALL OF THEM), A leader and ALL UNITS of his type---
like ALL INF....

So you'd have to deal with those two demoralized units with two activations---independent of any other activations that are taking place.

3) So---Rules as written----given 1.1----is it even possible to activate a Leader and ONE of the DEM units?  I would say the 1.1 AS WRITTEN says NO.
The last phrase says "a leader and all units of his type".....Not some, not just one of the two DEM---it would have to be both?

--this cause me consternation as it's NOT how I've seen it played, or played it,---but---perhaps I/we've been wrong?

Aside--the FOW house rule I use when I play FOW REQUIRES rolls for recovery for Demoralized units IF they have not yet rolled during
normal turn, and FOW strikes....They do so without help of any leaders (if you wanted to do it, should have done it...).  Player agency to game the
demoralization by delaying until FOW by moving trucks, or whatever is lost---the point is they are demoralized, and you don't get to control what happens...
They are Gonna roll, like it or not.

[cjsiam]

Here's another assault hex fleeing issue.

I have a unit in an assault hex that is supposed to flee, but all 6 hexes around it are occupied by enemy units.  So, I think 14.33 governs and he goes to ground.

However, then I notice that one of the hexes is occupied only by a loaded wagon.  6.71 says units can freely enter hexes containing only transports, and that they eliminate the transports.

It seems odd to me that fleeing units could eliminate anyone, even just a loaded transport.  And the rules aren't clear on this.

Any thoughts?

Joe--- 14.33 and 14.35 are in conflict about your Demoralized unit fleeing the assault hex...
14.35 explicitly says he must exit the Assault hex....

So 14.33 is about Demoralized units Fleeing.
14.35 is Demoralized units in Assault Hex Fleeing....
I think 14.35 takes precedence in your case....he got to go...
if he cannot...he cannot be.....

But---I do think he can run over the Transports--only if they are empty (12.13)---desperate men with guns are not going to be stopped by
guys with horses.....
or in Trucks....
Leaders also would be displaced---even in Transports me thinks...

[joe_oppenheimer]

I've always allowed a stack to activate without requiring every unit in that stack to activate. The rules section quoted above does suggest it's either individual unit or entire stack, however

The last sentence of 3.11 says " It is not necessary to activate all units in a stack during an activation."

[Blackcloud6]

re: (Point being the above does not say "some units in the hex" it says "ONE", "a stack"(the units in the hex--ALL OF THEM), A leader and ALL UNITS of his type---
like ALL INF...."

Please read further to 3.1.  I bolded a very important part.

3.1 Action SegmentsAn action segment consists of any one of the following:

• A single unit or leader self-activating;
  
• Some or all units stacked together in the same hex activating at once, with or without leaders. If any regular leaders or tank leaders are in the stack, they may activate and direct the units in the stack for movement and combat purposes, plus units and subordinate leaders in adjacent hexes;
  
• A single leader activating and directing all units in his hex plus the six hexes adjacent to him;
  
• A single leader activating and directing a chain of units and lower-ranking leaders in several hexes through Subordinate Activation (3.2).
  

Thus, in a hex with three units, you can activate two of the three together and not activate the third.

[J6A]

Here's another assault hex fleeing issue.

I have a unit in an assault hex that is supposed to flee, but all 6 hexes around it are occupied by enemy units.  So, I think 14.33 governs and he goes to ground.

However, then I notice that one of the hexes is occupied only by a loaded wagon.  6.71 says units can freely enter hexes containing only transports, and that they eliminate the transports.

It seems odd to me that fleeing units could eliminate anyone, even just a loaded transport.  And the rules aren't clear on this.

Any thoughts?

12.13 says the fleeing unit is eliminated.

So it does.  I missed that one.  Thanks!

[cjsiam]

re: (Point being the above does not say "some units in the hex" it says "ONE", "a stack"(the units in the hex--ALL OF THEM), A leader and ALL UNITS of his type---
like ALL INF...."

Please read further to 3.1.  I bolded a very important part.

3.1 Action SegmentsAn action segment consists of any one of the following:

• A single unit or leader self-activating;
  
• Some or all units stacked together in the same hex activating at once, with or without leaders. If any regular leaders or tank leaders are in the stack, they may activate and direct the units in the stack for movement and combat purposes, plus units and subordinate leaders in adjacent hexes;
  
• A single leader activating and directing all units in his hex plus the six hexes adjacent to him;
  
• A single leader activating and directing a chain of units and lower-ranking leaders in several hexes through Subordinate Activation (3.2).
  

Thus, in a hex with three units, you can activate two of the three together and not activate the third.

Thank you.....
3.1 adds more to the summary provided in 1.X...
I figured it was clarified somewhere---we can't all have misread it the same way.

I'll sleep better now.