German 88mm AT gun usage in game

[cjsiam]

There is a lot on the subject if you Google it, and general consensus is that it was used for indirect fire, albeit not frequently.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=139869 is 1 such topic.

Some good information....A few things show up alot in researching this:
1) The Allied soldier thought every kind of art that shot at him was an '88'....
2) The german 88s had fixed ammo loads (shell velocity would be consistent) and had the options only of varying the fuse... meaning that they could fire the weapon with a timed
   explosion...but "lobbing" shells in high arcs, as indirect artillery does, not really an option....

Firing long range, at things you can see --- no question...

Firing long range, at things you can't see and are tuning----I suppose that is where the "stories" of Indirect artillery come from....
the lobbing of shells from TD (M10s) with their 3inch guns is perhaps closest example...on prepared ramps....for elevation....

Still leaves an unpleasant taste, but, there are those who think it defendable, --- I will have to acquiesce....
cj

[cjsiam]

OH---but what about Direct fire?
Is it only Bombardment then at 8factors----no Direct fire with this 88mm gun?

that seems odd---many more examples of that then the indirect fire role---so----8 on the DF? or "No, sorry, that's excluded...."??
cj

[plloyd1010]

Perhaps the issue is more that you have a problem with the game mechanics. No pieces have bombardment and direct fire factors. So a choice has to be made. This is further complicated by the usage of heavy AA guns. Contact fusing is not the normal method of inflicting damage on a target, as an infantry gun would be, nor is the bombardment via lobbing shells, as a howitzer would normally be. Functionally, most of these guns are out of their element, hence the weird ammunition available. I also expect, had it not been for von Thoma and the Spanish Civil War, **'s would not have such a good AT rating.

[cjsiam]

Hmmm.....I'd bet the Direct fire anti infantry/building/bunker out numbers the "Indirect" assertions 100 to 1....
So....yea, taking the minor case, and excluding the Major...
Yea, I do have an issue with that.

This, as you note, is a very special case....the AT is unquestioned, the INDIRECT is asserted, the DIRECT FIRE is also very well documented....
LET ALONE AA....and, I assume we get to move the aircraft attack by one column within 3? (600m) (shouldn't it be more? for the 88? ranging 6000m?)

So yea, if you're gonna do it---we do it...
AT -- 8-9 check
INDF -- 12-15 (ok, fine)
DF -- same 12-15 would be fine, thank you(that's only 3000m...they have Rangefinders for multiples of that....)
AA -- maybe six hexes? instead of 3?

High velocity guns, with long range and impact fuzes (which 88s had), should be able to fire Direct....

[J6A]

I have always found it a little strange that all AA is considered equal against aircraft, and I suspect that's purely a simplicity decision.  To have a whole subsystem of different ranges for different weapons which would have to change against types of planes and be annotated every time a new weapon is released is probably not the intent of the system.  I mean, look at Korea.  If a B-29 comes over, a light AA gun shouldn't bother it at all.  If its in WW2 Europe, can an 88 really do much against fighter bombers coming in low? 

The same might be the ultimate answer to the indirect fire question.  Choices had to be made without "ASL-ing" the game.  As was mentioned above, its either direct/AT or indirect/AT.  Direct puts it on a different fire table, perhaps making it too effective (although I suppose one could play with factors, which leads to debates about "why is an 88 only 1/4 as effective as a 150" or whatever) or basically saying "anything that isn't an Infantry Gun gets bombardment factors, and gets to fire indirect, whether or not its totally accurate.

[plloyd1010]

Functionally 88mm(hvy AA) are not going to change. No unit that I am aware of has DF and BF numbers, and starting that road would open issues that will never end. (Don't say "no just this", because it never is.)

As the 88 is now: Fire at 1 hex = 16 column (BF table); 2-12 hexes = 16 column probable, otherwise 12; 13-15 = 16 column likely, otherwise 12.
If a 12-15 direct fire: Fire at 1 hex = 22 column (DF table); 2 hexes = 11 column; 3-15 hexes = 7 column.
Is that really worth the argument so far?

Not sure about the 3 hex range. Hvy AA didn't often do much against ground attack aircraft. My biggest gripe would be Hvy AA firing over obstacles close to it or the target.

[leonard]

All of this does not mention the poor effect of indirect fire weapons on the battlefield regarding « combat movement » and « demoralized units enforced fleeing »...

[saracv3]

Check lonesentry.com for 88mm manual. This manual is the actual manual from WWII.I haven’t taken a look see at it yet but it appears to be in English.

As to Peter’s question on altitude, Wikipedia states 9300m.

[cjsiam]

All of this does not mention the poor effect of indirect fire weapons on the battlefield regarding « combat movement » and « demoralized units enforced fleeing »...

Leonard---I'm not sure I catch your drift here.....

The 88mm High velocity anti-Aircraft gun....would NOT impact combat movement/demoralized fleeing units (Unlike the 75mm Infantry gun) because 
  the 88 MAY NOT direct fire---where the 75mm can..... The 88mm can impact AFV...but not infantry that it can see..... and infantry that is demoralized does not have 
  to flee either, right?...... So a battery of 88mm AA guns on a hill can not stop infantry approaching it sans combat leadership because it cannot direct fire at the
  infanty--thus "cannot hurt them" applies (page 1 of rules under movement).....

A 37mm AT can direct fire (3 hexes--but it can).... so infantry without officers has to stop at 4hexes, as they can be hurt....

But, if you're attacking a battery of 88mm guns---with a few stacks of infantry units, even without officers---it would seem you can approach in the open.....
anybody who didn't get suppressed by Bombardment (the only Anti infantry fire available to the High velocity 88mm AA gun--) will be able to saddle up to the adjacent square and
pore in infantry fire---and no officers needed....

So--be careful where you place them if you're defending against infantry---I guess that's the lesson ---want to keep those AA guns out of Direct fire LOS, you know in trees, behind hills so infantry is slowed down as the defenseless 88mm AA guns try to bombard from forest hexes in high arcs to rain death on the infantry.....

yea.... That my take away... ....
me thinks additional cogitation is in order by the assembled throngs.....
cj

[leonard]

All of this does not mention the poor effect of indirect fire weapons on the battlefield regarding « combat movement » and « demoralized units enforced fleeing »...

Exactly what I was saying... unless you are playing with Peter’s rules version ;-)