Dug-in Units, officers and their application

[cjsiam]

So picture a couple infantry dug-in....there is an officer (he defaults to dug-in)...
Then there is another friendly infantry NOT dug in who joins the hex....

There is this terrible assault on said hex...

So---the Defenders can:
1) Roll first-fire with two infantry and officer
then
2) Roll single simultaneous fire with the attacker....

What about the officer? Can he be counted in 2) as well as 1)?

Inquiring minds......

Also, it is true that the defender gets both the First-fire (with the units dug) in AND the simultaneous?
he does not need to choose ONE or the other?

We've been playing the 1) 2) above---officer doesn't get to do both....
thanks!
cj

[Schoenwulf]

I think that you need to choose one or the other for the defending infantry, either fire as a group with all INF or split fire with the Dug-ins taking FF and the others in the regular assault; however I'd think the officer could lend his bonus to both firings since he's there to provide morale to all the units in the hex, and they have all activated together. It's just that some of the gang haven't gotten around to digging in yet, or haven't had time.

[cjsiam]

I think that you need to choose one or the other  for the defending infantry, either fire as a group with all INF or split fire with the Dug-ins taking FF and the others in the regular assault; however I'd think the officer could lend his bonus to both firings since he's there to provide morale to all the units in the hex, and they have all activated together. It's just that some of the gang haven't gotten around to digging in yet, or haven't had time.

Interesting....Let's hear more....

To throw another wrinkle on it...

IF the officer participates by adding a combat modifier---does that change the result?

The rules say he can only add a modifier to one unit---so if he does that --- does he still get to "add leadership" to the other combat going on in the hex ?

?

[Schoenwulf]

I think that you need to choose one or the other  for the defending infantry, either fire as a group with all INF or split fire with the Dug-ins taking FF and the others in the regular assault; however I'd think the officer could lend his bonus to both firings since he's there to provide morale to all the units in the hex, and they have all activated together. It's just that some of the gang haven't gotten around to digging in yet, or haven't had time.

Interesting....Let's hear more....

To throw another wrinkle on it...

IF the officer participates by adding a combat modifier---does that change the result?

The rules say he can only add a modifier to one unit---so if he does that --- does he still get to "add leadership" to the other combat going on in the hex ?

?

I'd figure that he only adds his combat factor to a single unit because the rules are pretty specific that each CF can only be added to a single unit, but his inspiration is ubiquitous The assault could be viewed as a single interaction with some units that are dug-in having an advantage should they wish to use it, while others do not....but the leader is urging them all on?

[rerathbun]

According to 12.43 (Third Edition) and 12.43 (Fourth Edition), the assault defender chooses: either the Dug-In units use first fire and the other unit doesn't fire at all, or all three of the units fire and it is done simultaneously with the attackers.  The Leaders, of course, affect the combat whichever the defender chooses.  If only the two Dug-In units defend in an assault, all three may still conduct an assault of their own during their activation.

[cjsiam]

According to 12.43 (Third Edition) and 12.43 (Fourth Edition), the assault defender chooses: either the Dug-In units use first fire and the other unit doesn't fire at all, or all three of the units fire and it is done simultaneously with the attackers.  The Leaders, of course, affect the combat whichever the defender chooses.  If only the two Dug-In units defend in an assault, all three may still conduct an assault of their own during their activation.

So this interpretation is that there will either be:
A) One First fire(using two units and officer)---then attacker fires all his units....
or
B) Only a simultaneous exchange with (defender using 3 units and officer) 

ok.....That nails it for me.....
I saw---and I think the others here also saw---that an interpretation of two defensive fires the Dug in units together--and then the NOT dug in units seperate.
This interpretation holds up and does not involve the "multiple application of officer"....

[cjsiam]

Just to close this off....

12.43 in Fourth edition is clear...

The defender gets to choose EITHER:
a) First fire with those dug in

OR

b) Simultaneous fire with ALL the units --and the attacker at same time.

So---
There is no "two defensive fire scenarios".....the rules are explicit.
The Officer impacts (with both combat factors and presence) the SINGLE assault roll the defenders make...

cj

[J6A]

Hmm...I have always played 2 defensive fires. I have to look at that rule again. I mean, hell, I've only been playing the system over a decade, why get all the rules right?

[plloyd1010]

Always remember, printed materials with the game are only the publisher's suggestion on how things should be played.

[cjsiam]

But what this does do is require players to KNOW or AGREE on such things
as they plan out and play their strategy....

So---maybe we need to have a "list of rules which are subject to interpretation differences between editions and experience:

So maybe this is Case #1:

Assault hex handling of Dug-in and Entrenchments --- A) only one defensive roll or B) First Fire -- and Simultaneous fire (and how Officer is applied to one or both)

Personally---having now dealt with a number of Assault scenarios....They are pretty hard slog.... 

A is RAW (Rules as Written); B) is something else....

What are other such cases? ... and we Mentor/Mentoree new players---we need to get this right....
cj