+- PG-HQ Forums (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms)
+-- Forum: Panzer Grenadier (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Panzer Grenadier Rules (https://www.pg-hq.com/comms/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! (/showthread.php?tid=618)
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Airlifter - 09-17-2013
(09-17-2013, 07:27 AM)otto Wrote: Me being stupid.
Sorry folks if my proposals arrived like from above. I did not realize until yesterday that the this forum was used for sharing our views .
From tomorrow I will stay tuned here.
Ottavio
Not at all. Welcome my friend. Glad to have you with us.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - otto - 09-17-2013
I tried to catch up and I went trhought the past 12 pages. ...quite challenging.
What I'm really in favour of is:
- changing the cycles movement capability from personell to motorized
- making the AT guns hide better, as per Vince's suggestion
- changing the relative speed of Mechanized vis a vis Motorized units in road and off-road hexes
- coping with the "strangneess" of the LOS rule which talks about two hill lines
...but I might skipped something important
I second Enrique's proposal as fars as the wording of a few rules of Infanty attack to be used in PG. And concerning IA, I made a suggestion on drumfire.
What really seemed to be missing is which changes made in Modern PG to be included in the new version of PG.
In the mail I sent Jhon before joining this thread there were a few points. Jhon may be I could share them here, it is mostly a list of "yes a like this rule/wording please bring it in"
Ottavio
Ottavio
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - leonard - 09-18-2013
(09-10-2013, 08:09 PM)vince hughes Wrote: When re-writing, be careful where the word UNIT and leader are used.
Want a counter with an arrow so units can be designated what side of the river they are on in a hex.
Clarify rules for hedgerows, hedges and bocage. There are 3 different iterarions I believe.
Lets get clarified what constitutes a 'tank' for the +1 bonus in assault combat.
Make obvious in the rules what fighting vehicles need 'foot' leaders to actate them (such as self-propelled artillery whether armoured or truck borne .... who activates them)
Lets insert Non-DEM ENG units when adding the +1 bonuses they get.
Lets clarify controlled hexes by adding a 'disputed' hex for VC's. Also clarify whether a DEM unit counts as controlling a hex if it was the last to enter the hex but was fleeing.
In assault modifiers, add to the non-DEM leader that he does not affect AFV's but DOES modify APC's.
Needs to be clarified whether cavalry can charge a unit they can not see ? (sounds daft, but it came up in a game Wayne and I played)
As much as I like their freedom of movement when I have them, I think MTC's need some kind of dismount rule before engaging and DF. (Perhaps a simple +1 MP)
Can we make gun dragging universal throughout the game system rather than differet types or even none from module to module.
Does the 75mm IG warrant a +2 DF modifier against it. Very small silhouette and many times its better to keep them at the back of a battle and not get them involved to save the VP loss for when they are wiped out.
HIP perhaps for all AT guns that set-up on board at scenario start. They are too often bombed to bits before even get a chance to take part. However, rather than allocate them normal hidden unit rules, they should be open to normal spotting. Therefore, if in a limiting terrain, they are spotted from 3 hexes rather than 1 hex as per normal hidden units.
How about a rule for morale no higher than 10 for any UNIT (not leader) after all mods etc
Minefields: To avoid gameyness, lone leaders and trucks should not be allowed to scout minefields. APC's fine, but trucks NO.
My 2 cents :
I agree with Vince on many of the above points :
- yes, pay attention to unit/leader definition
- arrow counters to indicate occupied river bank : YES, I had included some in Fall of France but they were deleted from the set for some obscure reason. Otherwise, the rules prohibit the entry of motorized vehicles in river hexes ... even if they also are town hexes...
- rules for Light woods : -1 column shift should be obtained for firing in or through. Different iterations of this rule in different modules.
- Clarify what is considered a 'tank', especially in victory conditions.
- Specify what type of leader is capable of activating special units (self-prop art, unarmored armed vehicles,...)
- Precise controlled/disputed condition of an hex.
- Clarify Cavalry charge rule = OK. Introduce a (simple) overrun rule would be the best.
- HIP for AT guns : YES
- Morale not higher than 10 after all mods = OK
- Modify Hill LOS rules : Yes, just like they all said = Hill hexes are not Limited terrain per se. - 1 column shift only if firing from lower elevation. My explanation (?) of the "two elevation lines crossed" rule is that the second slope with the same elevation blocks LOS to a lower elevation = see FoF map 26, no LOS from 0216 to 1215.
- Offboard artillery : I had a rule for counterbattery fire in FoF but it was deleted in the end = you can use your own artillery (30+) to try to suppress the other player's artillery for one turn, only.
- Night rules : the present rules states that Night conditions prevail if visibility is just one hex. I would prefer to read "Night rules apply". Moreover I don't find the night moving restrictions very easy to use : "without a leader activation, you may not enter non-controlled hexes", I would prefer "without a leader activation, you may only enter road/trail/river or town hexes"
-I like "special events" a lot and I regret they were absent from the latest modules.
- Assault rules are OK as they are now. However I like the "Dave Murray" variant with the advantage rule.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Airlifter - 09-18-2013
(09-18-2013, 08:23 AM)leonard Wrote: My 2 cents :
I agree with Vince on many of the above points :
- Assault rules are OK as they are now. However I like the "Dave Murray" variant with the advantage rule.
Can you please explain the Dave Murray rule?
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Airlifter - 09-18-2013
(09-17-2013, 09:24 PM)otto Wrote: I tried to catch up and I went trhought the past 12 pages. ...quite challenging.
What I'm really in favour of is:
- changing the cycles movement capability from personell to motorized
- making the AT guns hide better, as per Vince's suggestion
- changing the relative speed of Mechanized vis a vis Motorized units in road and off-road hexes
- coping with the "strangneess" of the LOS rule which talks about two hill lines
...but I might skipped something important
I second Enrique's proposal as fars as the wording of a few rules of Infanty attack to be used in PG. And concerning IA, I made a suggestion on drumfire.
What really seemed to be missing is which changes made in Modern PG to be included in the new version of PG.
In the mail I sent Jhon before joining this thread there were a few points. Jhon may be I could share them here, it is mostly a list of "yes a like this rule/wording please bring it in"
Ottavio
Ottavio
Yes, please do.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Airlifter - 09-18-2013
Someone kindly tell me what HIP stands for?
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - rerathbun - 09-18-2013
(09-18-2013, 09:38 AM)Airlifter Wrote: Can you please explain the Dave Murray rule?
I believe he's referring to the Panzer Grenadier Assault Variant.
It adds a lot of flavor to assaults, but I'd personally prefer it remain an optional rule.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - leonard - 09-18-2013
(09-18-2013, 09:44 AM)Airlifter Wrote: Someone kindly tell me what HIP stands for?
Oh sorry ! HIP = hidden unit placement.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Michael Murphy - 09-18-2013
(09-18-2013, 09:44 AM)Airlifter Wrote: Someone kindly tell me what HIP stands for?
HIP comes from ASL and stands for Hidden Initial Placement. Some scenarios permit HIP setup for one side, usually defenders.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Matt W - 09-18-2013
As to the assault advantage system suggested by Dave Murray I would agree with Robin that this should be an optional but not required system. It rapidly provides the stroner side in an assault with an insurmountable advantage. I can't tell you how many times a games has hinged on a small but tough force hanging on in an assault. Under this system such a defense would rapidly fall as they rarely outperform their opponents on results, they merely survive the assault turn after turn. I count this as a strong point of the system. No assault should be foolproof after two or three turns.